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  • salamander6773
    replied
    Originally posted by admin View Post
    I think we're talking about the same thing.

    While we're actively tugging, we are causing slow growth, but we also induce temporary skin distortion. Every time we remove a device, the distortion begins to revert. I think of it like spherical skin cells stretched into football-shaped ovals, gradually going circular again.

    But when I said we see rebounding within every day I meant that the amount of flaccid coverage we show depends exactly how thoroughly flaccid we are, and that's going to vary throughout the day.
    Yes, I agree. The skin is definitely there, and continues to grow, but it seems to deceive me sometimes because sometimes it looks longer than it really is, and perhaps like you said that is from the "dartos muscle" or flaccid state. It's kind of like that period of time when going from short to long hair, and the in between looks weird and terrible, but it looks good short, or long. That's how I think of what I am going through. I know it will be great when it is fully grown, but until then, I am in that awkward annoying phase of in betweens, which unfortunately lasts a very long time. I feel like the biggest milestone must be reliable unassisted flaccid coverage, after that the rest is gravy, or icing on the cake so to speak!

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  • admin
    replied
    Originally posted by salamander6773 View Post
    calling it rebounding, I think parceskin was the first to use the term here. It's hella frustrating!
    I think we're talking about the same thing.

    While we're actively tugging, we are causing slow growth, but we also induce temporary skin distortion. Every time we remove a device, the distortion begins to revert. I think of it like spherical skin cells stretched into football-shaped ovals, gradually going circular again.

    But when I said we see rebounding within every day I meant that the amount of flaccid coverage we show depends exactly how thoroughly flaccid we are, and that's going to vary throughout the day.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gundog
    replied
    Originally posted by admin View Post
    If the progress you're looking for is flaccid coverage, this volatility happens within every day.

    I'm still waiting to hear from someone who carefully logged an objective measure of progress like Forced Erect Coverage http://TLCTugger.com/forced-erect-coverage/ and saw their progress revert to a prior level while they continued to tug. I contend that it does not happen.
    I have kept a log and tracked my FEC every month faithfully for the last 20 months, I have never had a revert of progress, many months I had no gain, measurements were the same for quite a few months in a row, but part of that was to the lengthening of the penis it self from the restoration process that made my length change by over 3/4". Over the course of my restoration journey measuring the FEC monthly progress has been from sometimes zero to as much as 10mm. The last 6 months the progress is more like zero to 3 mm a month, so progress has slowed quite a bit which I attribute to that I have been growing just inner skin which takes long to grow compared to outer skin.

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  • salamander6773
    replied
    Originally posted by admin View Post
    If the progress you're looking for is flaccid coverage, this volatility happens within every day.

    I'm still waiting to hear from someone who carefully logged an objective measure of progress like Forced Erect Coverage http://TLCTugger.com/forced-erect-coverage/ and saw their progress revert to a prior level while they continued to tug. I contend that it does not happen.
    The rebounding I speak of is not the action of a foreskin, it is the effect of elasticity that the skin loses after taking off the device. Shortly after taking off the device, my coverage is phenomenal, but wait 6 hours or so, and that coverage is non-existent. Same goes for retaining. After taking off my underwear, I am in awe at my progress... But if I do not retain for a while, I am at awe at my lack thereof.

    We started calling it rebounding, I think parceskin was the first to use the term here. It's hella frustrating!

    Leave a comment:


  • admin
    replied
    Originally posted by salamander6773 View Post
    The constant rebounding is what is hardest for me to deal with. The skin tricks you into thinking you are farther along, then the rebound comes and dashes your hopes, again and again and again.
    If the progress you're looking for is flaccid coverage, this volatility happens within every day.

    I'm still waiting to hear from someone who carefully logged an objective measure of progress like Forced Erect Coverage http://TLCTugger.com/forced-erect-coverage/ and saw their progress revert to a prior level while they continued to tug. I contend that it does not happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • salamander6773
    replied
    The constant rebounding is what is hardest for me to deal with. The skin tricks you into thinking you are farther along, then the rebound comes and dashes your hopes, again and again and again.

    The mental fortitude to continue tugging is something like a prison cell mentality. Where you take enjoyment in tugging quietly in a room. Happy with whatever small differences there are... Ever notice how strong some inmates get in prison. Doing pushups and sit ups for hours in their cells. Admitting that most inmates probably come out weaker and unable to work after such experience.

    Masturbating after taking off the device is another tease, allowing you to feel what it is like almost to be intact, only to lose that elasticity the longer your device remains off.

    O Rings seem to work, but the hassle and from what I have seen, risk of a permanent ring forming, makes it not worth it for me. Even after hearing how it can boost the development of skin cells. The loss of blood flow to that area of skin, however slight seems to steer me to retaining with underwear as well.

    Time is a valuable thing, and it waits for no man... We must make decisions that are right for us. Some of us seemingly wait out this experience,hoping for the best. Some of us might be loners and quiet individuals, who can bear with the constant application of a device better than others... Some have already quit, and many will join them, unable to put the hours in and unable to put things aside that are more important in life.

    Tugging seems best done while single, without family or with a supportive wife/family. Otherwise it would be extremely difficult...

    Nice job on the calculator by the way, sorry for the tangent. Like Ron mentioned, using some real examples of individuals who have reached flaccid coverage would be ideal, but between the variation therein and the actual rarity of such, (unless there are a hundred restored lurkers) makes such a task difficult. I keep thinking about mjwise's gallery, but he was an exception to the rule... His youth, diet, and ability to get 12 hours a day of tugging for 2 years straight almost, made his progress stand out for sure... Even some of the inventors of devices were probably awed at his outcome...

    You could probably count on 2 hands the people who have reached flaccid coverage (reliable) in 2 years. (edit: I also seem to always forget the awesome head-start some loosely cut individuals have. A tight circ is difficult to bear with, it took me 2 years or more to get to a starting point for some loose cut circs.)

    Leave a comment:


  • KragDragon
    replied
    Originally posted by Reality View Post

    I see that as the 'one day at a time" approach, with the substitution of "year" for "day", if you get my meaning. Whatever approach allows you to go on tugging. I can testify that it's entirely worth it: increased sensation that can't be denied, as is the mental strength to just go on, which happens as you do go on restoring (as Mr Petty sang, "ain't no easy way out").

    I practice another practice which takes faith and painful physical effort; faith enough to just go on in the hope, not certainty, that something will happen. In fact some small milestones in that very rigorous practice have happened, and been confirmed in several unanticipated ways. I've seen unanticipated milestones in the practice of restoration, too, and those kept me going. Hell, just the simple comparison between where I began and where I found myself at points along the road was enough to keep that faith stoked. "Faith" is one of those buzzwords that I used to despise, as a man of Science. But as it turns out, measuring (Science) has to be based on some faith, and importantly, on good science, which makes measuring a biological tissue, prone to its own rules and processes, very difficult to forecast and therefore stands against good science. So, as that "man of science", I avoid trying to forecast; I promote the mental effort it takes to complete restoration to your goal, because you can't avoid that. Guts and grit, pretty much everything in Life takes guts and grit to get somewhere. "Faith" doesn't get in the way of anything; "Science", ie measuring, can.
    A slacker approach allows me to keep on tugging indefinitely, but the problem is that simply keeping on tugging doesn't cause any growth. You have to keep on tugging effectively. And effective tugging requires a significant dedication of time and effort for 10 to 20 years straight. It had better make sex a cosmic supernova of ecstasy for that cost.

    I've had the opposite experience with the milestones. Just crossed my official two year mark a couple weeks ago, and though the upgrade is nice, after two years, even with my pessimistic outlook, I expected to have made a lot more progress than this. I can guarantee I will never reach my goal of flaccid coverage at this rate... it would take a solid 20 years, and there's no way I can keep up an effective tugging routine that long. So, I plan to just tug until my burnout factor outweighs my ego's aversion to failure, and call that the best I could do. I estimate I'll make it about five years before I throw in the towel, but we'll see.

    In my case it's not a matter of guts and grit, but investment. I'm no business man, but I have the business mentality towards life. I look at the cost of an endeavor, and I look at the reward, and I determine if it's worth investing the time/effort.

    The cost: 20 years of being perpetually distracted by the need to pull on my penis,
    The reward: Not being circumcised anymore.

    Is it worth it? Hell no. 20 years free of distraction is a far more valuable thing than getting my foreskin (or skin tube as you call it). Even 10 years free of distraction is more valuable. A whole decade of being able to just enjoy my body despite it's scars, rather than a whole decade of tugger on, tugger off, adjust tugger, don't forget to tug before bed, don't forget to tug while watching videos, don't forget to tug while writing text walls on forums, tugger is slipping off again, etc. For five years it would be worth it. For ten, not really. For 20, fuck that.

    I've become convinced that for me, quitting is actually the wisest choice. I'm just too stubborn to do so just yet.

    I'm curious though... what is this other practice you practice? Martial arts, perhaps?

    Leave a comment:


  • Reality
    replied
    I should add: the word unanticipated is the operative concept here. Trying to measure, and then forecast the future from measurement, is grounded in anticipation. So is obsession. Both will step on all the unanticipated benefits and pleasure which arise along the way in so-called restoration. It's like standing in front of your partner and focusing on your orgasm when your pants are still on : ) It's not the time for that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Reality
    replied
    Originally posted by KragDragon View Post

    I personally am obsessive about trying to estimate how long it will take, because I need to know whether it's worth it to me to continue. Tugging in a way that yields any kind of progress costs me a high price in time and energy. It better damn well be worth it, or I'd rather just give it up and enjoy all those years free of this perpetual distraction.

    Unfortunately my present estimate is that reaching my goal (full unassisted flaccid coverage) will take way more years (decades) than it's worth to me. But I'm going to keep tugging for at least one more year out of sheer stubbornness, and the hope that I'm underestimating how much skin I've grown these past two years.
    I see that as the 'one day at a time" approach, with the substitution of "year" for "day", if you get my meaning. Whatever approach allows you to go on tugging. I can testify that it's entirely worth it: increased sensation that can't be denied, as is the mental strength to just go on, which happens as you do go on restoring (as Mr Petty sang, "ain't no easy way out").

    I practice another practice which takes faith and painful physical effort; faith enough to just go on in the hope, not certainty, that something will happen. In fact some small milestones in that very rigorous practice have happened, and been confirmed in several unanticipated ways. I've seen unanticipated milestones in the practice of restoration, too, and those kept me going. Hell, just the simple comparison between where I began and where I found myself at points along the road was enough to keep that faith stoked. "Faith" is one of those buzzwords that I used to despise, as a man of Science. But as it turns out, measuring (Science) has to be based on some faith, and importantly, on good science, which makes measuring a biological tissue, prone to its own rules and processes, very difficult to forecast and therefore stands against good science. So, as that "man of science", I avoid trying to forecast; I promote the mental effort it takes to complete restoration to your goal, because you can't avoid that. Guts and grit, pretty much everything in Life takes guts and grit to get somewhere. "Faith" doesn't get in the way of anything; "Science", ie measuring, can.

    Leave a comment:


  • KragDragon
    replied
    Originally posted by Reality View Post

    Yes, absolutely. And the perennial question has to be, WHY would anyone want to know an "average", or better yet, how long any of this happens. It will take the amount of time it takes, especially in the face of the variables. So.......you will be finished when you call it finished, which happens to be the last variable in all of this, ie your opinion on what is 'finished'. There is no known average, just guesses, and if there was, what happens when you don't meet it, for some reason. What is your alternative if you don't meet it? All you can do is go on tugging, perhaps in a different method or schedule, but tugging is the only solution available to you, in skin expansion. Like any other practice in this life, this whole thing takes guts; just depends on how much you want it. Go for it.
    I personally am obsessive about trying to estimate how long it will take, because I need to know whether it's worth it to me to continue. Tugging in a way that yields any kind of progress costs me a high price in time and energy. It better damn well be worth it, or I'd rather just give it up and enjoy all those years free of this perpetual distraction.

    Unfortunately my present estimate is that reaching my goal (full unassisted flaccid coverage) will take way more years (decades) than it's worth to me. But I'm going to keep tugging for at least one more year out of sheer stubbornness, and the hope that I'm underestimating how much skin I've grown these past two years.

    Leave a comment:


  • Reality
    replied
    Originally posted by KragDragon View Post
    That calculator has a major problem. It says "enter length (cm/in)"...

    Centimeters and inches are a long way from being interchangeable...

    But yeah, there's so vastly many variables involved in foreskin restoration, trying to calculate it seems like a waste of effort. Severity of the circumcision, genetics, commitment, health, force and duration of tension, age, even perception... what I call comfortable tension might be painful to someone else, or vice versa. And we all have a different picture of what our end goal looks like.

    Best you can do is just start restoring and observe your progress to get a rough idea how long it will take to get where you want to be.
    Yes, absolutely. And the perennial question has to be, WHY would anyone want to know an "average", or better yet, how long any of this happens. It will take the amount of time it takes, especially in the face of the variables. So.......you will be finished when you call it finished, which happens to be the last variable in all of this, ie your opinion on what is 'finished'. There is no known average, just guesses, and if there was, what happens when you don't meet it, for some reason. What is your alternative if you don't meet it? All you can do is go on tugging, perhaps in a different method or schedule, but tugging is the only solution available to you, in skin expansion. Like any other practice in this life, this whole thing takes guts; just depends on how much you want it. Go for it.

    Leave a comment:


  • KragDragon
    replied
    Originally posted by mattsprofile View Post

    The equation which is being used in this tool is a basic proportional growth with a couple parameters modified to fit the expected growth as compiled and interpreted by the equation maker. But basically the point is that the actual units dont matter, the growth is assumed to be proportional to the amount of skin on the penis.

    I don't personally believe this assumption to be strictly true at this point in time, but I'm not going to argue about that. I'm just here to defend the fact that the units don't matter in the equation under the assumption that the equation itself is valid.

    But both fields to have to be input with the same units. So if one is in inches the other should also be in inches. If one is in mm the other should be mm. If one is in furlongs the other should also be in furlongs. You get the point.
    I see.

    Well, all arguments aside, that calculator is about 5x optimistic according to my observations. Even on low commitment it says I'll be done in 4 years. At the rate I'm going I'll be lucky if I make it in 20...

    Leave a comment:


  • mattsprofile
    replied
    Originally posted by KragDragon View Post
    That calculator has a major problem. It says "enter length (cm/in)"...

    Centimeters and inches are a long way from being interchangeable...
    The equation which is being used in this tool is a basic proportional growth with a couple parameters modified to fit the expected growth as compiled and interpreted by the equation maker. But basically the point is that the actual units dont matter, the growth is assumed to be proportional to the amount of skin on the penis.

    I don't personally believe this assumption to be strictly true at this point in time, but I'm not going to argue about that. I'm just here to defend the fact that the units don't matter in the equation under the assumption that the equation itself is valid.

    But both fields to have to be input with the same units. So if one is in inches the other should also be in inches. If one is in mm the other should be mm. If one is in furlongs the other should also be in furlongs. You get the point.

    Leave a comment:


  • KragDragon
    replied
    That calculator has a major problem. It says "enter length (cm/in)"...

    Centimeters and inches are a long way from being interchangeable...

    But yeah, there's so vastly many variables involved in foreskin restoration, trying to calculate it seems like a waste of effort. Severity of the circumcision, genetics, commitment, health, force and duration of tension, age, even perception... what I call comfortable tension might be painful to someone else, or vice versa. And we all have a different picture of what our end goal looks like.

    Best you can do is just start restoring and observe your progress to get a rough idea how long it will take to get where you want to be.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marcus2448
    replied
    So what is the average rate of progress? Doing one of the calculators it required that you select average or more than average and I’m not sure.

    Leave a comment:

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