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  • 'Exponential growth'

    The concept that, if you're starting with less skin it takes you longer to see results (because the amount of skin you grow is mathematically proportional to the skin you have, i.e. growth behaves like a slow exponential).

    How do you guys weigh in? Fact or fiction?

    Personally, I don't think it's true.

  • #2
    Its NOT exponential growth. However, as you gain skin you do benefit from an increased rate of growth simply because you have more skin cells under tension and therefore more cells being stimulated to divide. I have noticed this in my own restoration. Increased rate? Yes. Exponential? No.

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    • #3
      Well, technically 2^0.8 is still exponential

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      • #4
        Maybe "piecewise exponential" is a better description.

        Added as an edit:
        What do you think happens to the skin after the initial elastic tug has gone - during breaks from active tugging? Does it continue to expand? Does it contract? Does it do nothing?
        We all have to take breaks - some short, some long.
        Last edited by Tormod; 11-06-2017, 01:34 PM.
        Tormod

        Some of you may have had occasion to run into mathematicians and to wonder therefore how they got that way - Tom Lehrer

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        • #5
          Originally posted by hide View Post
          The concept that, if you're starting with less skin it takes you longer to see results (because the amount of skin you grow is mathematically proportional to the skin you have, i.e. growth behaves like a slow exponential).

          How do you guys weigh in? Fact or fiction?

          Personally, I don't think it's true.
          Fiction; totally fiction. True exponential growth describes cancer, not normal mitosis, because true exponential growth is contrary to normal human epidermal physiology. Induced mitosis beyond the maintenance rate (this is what we do by tugging) is still governed by those physiological rules.

          This is a myth that won't die, as you can see, a myth that is based in the idea that we have control over things. The believers never actually describe how we somehow have "more cells" under tension. We don't, and we don't have control over any of this. Tension is tension, and the area actually stimulated is still the area you'd expect. Your skin does it all, according to those natural rules. Go outside natural rules, ie "exponential growth", and you have disease.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Reality View Post

            Fiction; totally fiction. True exponential growth describes cancer, not normal mitosis, because true exponential growth is contrary to normal human epidermal physiology. Induced mitosis beyond the maintenance rate (this is what we do by tugging) is still governed by those physiological rules.

            This is a myth that won't die, as you can see, a myth that is based in the idea that we have control over things. The believers never actually describe how we somehow have "more cells" under tension. We don't, and we don't have control over any of this. Tension is tension, and the area actually stimulated is still the area you'd expect. Your skin does it all, according to those natural rules. Go outside natural rules, ie "exponential growth", and you have disease.
            More cells under tension equals more cells replicating. Relatively it isn't exponential, but nominally it is. If we say that, for example, skin will grow at a rate of 1% every month under tension. That new 1% of skin grown will also multiply. So the first month your skin would be 101%, 102.1%, 103.31%, and so on.

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            • #7
              I would call it a rising rate. Its NOT exponential by any means.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by parsecskin View Post
                I would call it a rising rate. Its NOT exponential by any means.
                Can you objectively prove this?

                Exponential growth simply must be possible. How do you think that people can get very fat or pregnant and not explode through their skin? It is something I don't understand about restoration. How can it take so long when if I ate nothing but cheeseburgers for a month and didn't exercise I'd make way more than one foreskin worth of skin.
                Started CI-0 with no movable skin and 0% FEC

                Currently at CI-4 with 64% FEC

                See my progress gallery

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                • #9
                  Can you objectively prove that it is true exponential growth? Didn't think so. True exponential growth is like a run away freight train. When cancer grows this is exponential growth. You best listen to Info's explanation. He is right. i dont have the patience or time to write a manifesto on this. He does.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by poster #6 View Post

                    More cells under tension equals more cells replicating. Relatively it isn't exponential, but nominally it is. If we say that, for example, skin will grow at a rate of 1% every month under tension. That new 1% of skin grown will also multiply. So the first month your skin would be 101%, 102.1%, 103.31%, and so on.
                    Your problem here is you haven't described exponential growth. So go back and research what the term actually means.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gdom View Post

                      Can you objectively prove this?

                      Exponential growth simply must be possible. How do you think that people can get very fat or pregnant and not explode through their skin? It is something I don't understand about restoration. How can it take so long when if I ate nothing but cheeseburgers for a month and didn't exercise I'd make way more than one foreskin worth of skin.
                      True exponential growth is possible. But not for us, thankfully. True exponential growth is seen daily in cancer treatment centers. Your examples above are totally off the mark; they have nothing to do with exponential growth. In other words, they are not "objective" proof in any way.

                      As parsec aptly says, the term refers to a rate similar to a runaway freight train. You would (and therapists do) see epidermal tumors, not skin. Let me say it again, misshapen tumors, not skin. The rate is so fast that the rules for "shape" are destroyed. It's really just that simple. If you had first-hand experience with this, you would be nodding your head.

                      But people cling to this myth even when they're confronted with the truth because they have no basic understanding of the rules, or an understanding of the term itself, or the real world evidence of that term, not to mention any anecdotal "proof" of this happening in restoration history. It hasn't because it can't. But some guys hope for it, they want to nudge up against "control" because having to accept natural rules is somehow irritating, and because they have no understanding that those rules keep them safe. You are safe because your skin knows what to do, and when to do it. So relax, and tug.

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                      • #12
                        Great response.
                        Started CI-0 with no movable skin and 0% FEC

                        Currently at CI-4 with 64% FEC

                        See my progress gallery

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks Info. You saved my fingertips.

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                          • #14
                            I'm a scientist by training and I see what I believe are misconceptions in this thread. I'd like to clear up two things:
                            • Exponential growth is not fast (necessarily).
                            • Exponential growth does not mean uncontrollable. It is not cancer.
                            All it means is that it follows the equation
                            S(t) = A*et/T

                            where S is the amount of skin you have at any time, A is your initial amount of skin, e is 2.718281828459045..., t is time, and T is a constant. I don't think anyone has any dispute over the concepts of the amount of skin you have at any time, your initial amount of skin, or time-- the only dispute is really in that time constant, T. T could be one week, in which case, yes exponential growth would be ridiculous. In one week you'd be restored and in a year you would have enough skin to collapse the universe. (No, I'm not seriously suggesting that T is one week.) Alternatively, T could be 200 years, in which case you would never see any appreciable growth in skin over one lifetime and foreskin restoration would be a useless endeavor. Any growth that you did see would appear to be linear even though it is, in fact, exponential. If growth is exponential, I estimate the true value of T is somewhere around 3 to 5 years.

                            So what this really comes down to is whether you believe that new skin cells are created in direct proportion to the amount of skin cells you have. If you agree with that, then you must accept that growth is exponential, since that is practically the mathematical definition of exponential growth.

                            Info's rude rebuke of {post #6} is unwarranted and #6's numbers are a very reasonable approximation to exponential growth. I think it's Info who needs to "go back and research the exponential function".

                            Having said all of that, I am not convinced that foreskin restoration does follow exponential growth. It's possible, for example, that skin cells do not divide so readily if they have recently divided, which would mean that growth would be sub-exponential. I do not know enough about biology to say one way or the other. The purpose of this post instead is to emphasize that exponential growth is not unreasonable from a mathematical or basic scientific standpoint.

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                            • #15
                              The empirical evidence we have is that exponential growth is not occurring. The growth seems to be by and large restricted to very near the location that tension is applied, for whatever reason that may be. I would suggest that it appears to taper off rapidly as you move away from the point of tension.

                              If it were occurring, we would have lots of examples of advanced restorers being surprised at how much faster their progress becomes later in their restoration. We do not. We would also have lots of examples (reports) of growing skin further away. but we don't. My own experience fits a linear model much better.

                              In the end, it really doesn't matter, whatever the rate of growth and how it may or may not change, we tug until we reach our goal. That is the key.

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