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Anyone tried this for turkey necking?

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  • #16
    Tormod

    Some of you may have had occasion to run into mathematicians and to wonder therefore how they got that way - Tom Lehrer

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    • #17
      lol Reality... can't admit he's wrong even if there's photographic proof of it.

      That is an amazing restoration Tormod. Good motivation to keep at it.

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      • #18
        Oh and I forgot to respond about my "stone age" jab...
        The thing is, tissue expansion procedures for things like skin grafts, hair loss, and breast reconstruction grow skin drastically faster than any foreskin restoration method ever has... a matter of months rather than years. Now we can't use the same methods because implanting an expander under the skin would do a lot of damage to a penis, but still... if the difference in growth rates is over 12-to-1, it's obvious there's a lot of room for improvement in the field of foreskin restoration.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by KragDragon View Post
          Oh and I forgot to respond about my "stone age" jab...
          The thing is, tissue expansion procedures for things like skin grafts, hair loss, and breast reconstruction grow skin drastically faster than any foreskin restoration method ever has... a matter of months rather than years. Now we can't use the same methods because implanting an expander under the skin would do a lot of damage to a penis, but still... if the difference in growth rates is over 12-to-1, it's obvious there's a lot of room for improvement in the field of foreskin restoration.
          There are other factors to consider in this comparison you are making. First, we are working with not just skin, but highly specialized tissue that is more than just skin, making comparisons iffy. Second, this highly specialized tissue we are working with is highly mobile and stretchy, so the ability for us to force growth may not be the same. Third, we are not simply wanting to have coverage, we want to have coverage that is going to feel and function the way we desire, we want it to be "high performance" if you will. We are not willing to settle for partially functional, yet good coverage, at least I am not. Finally, most of us want to continue using this tissue and have it feel and function the way we want, while we are growing it, we are not happy saying no sex, wearing some specialized and very odd trousers or going naked for 24/7 until we are finished, etc.

          I think these are important aspects that affect how fast we can expect to grow skin. It is not as simple as the way you worded it, at least from what I understand. You may have been trying to get at these points I am making in your last part, but I do not know what damage you are envisioning, since we do not even know how to duplicate the growth rates you are referring to. If you think we are on the same page, then consider my post to be an attempt to clarify for the readers, what you meant. But I thought it was worth pointing out more clearly that we are not working with the same tissue that typical tissue expansion efforts do.

          Regards

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          • #20
            Wow this really went in an unintended direction.
            Started CI-0 with no movable skin and 0% FEC

            Currently at CI-4 with 64% FEC

            See my progress gallery

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            • #21
              And to address your comment about "photographic proof": You are new. You don't recognize what you are looking at. All you have in your mind is myth, and the "social" tendency to talk about it without care, because that is what social media does. This leads you to the tendency to trip over your own thought process. I explained what is shown in that photo. It is actually a common feature which you will see, if you finish. While I don't think you have what it takes to go the distance in restoration, IF you do, then gee, will your face be red....................and gee, your temporary skin tube have an uneven and false "edge" to that "tube".

              Newbies................

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Reality

                Basically, what greg-b said. But to put a little specificity to it:

                1. "Skin grafts" are...........skin grafts; the application of a tissue from another or adjacent area, into a wound, or over a wound or defect. If by "skin graft" you meant expanding a tissue prior to grafting, than that is just skin expansion. Of course skin grafting requires surgery. Surgery always has risks. Foreskin restoration doesn't have risks, and requires no surgery.

                2. "Hair loss" is........the loss of hair lol. The loss of hair is not a clinical technique. You can do it at home LOL. If you meant expanding a hair bearing tissue (usually adjacent to an area) then.....you don't understand how this surgery works. YOU AREN'T TALKING ABOUT SKIN EXPANSION AT ALL. This almost always involves taking a hair bearing tissue and SURGICALLY repositioning it. Do I need to say it? Foreskin restoration doesn't take a tissue and reposition it. And again, NO SURGERY INVOLVED.

                3. Expanders: have to be placed over dense muscle or bone; the tissue grown can be problematic; commonly is, in fact. Foreskin restoration doesn't involve risks, and the tissue we grow is complete, NOT SUBSTANDARD TISSUE DUE TO THE SHORT TIME FRAME USUALLY INVOLVED IN CLINICAL SKIN EXPANSION. While skin expansion as a technique in breast augmentation is grown at a slower clinical rate, thankfully, but some superstretched tissue is allowable in this scenario as well.

                So, dude, helps to know what the hell you're talking about, before you jump up and prove you don't. Which you proved. You having a bad day or something, 'cause you are totally talkin' out your ass on this; really poor "examples".

                And not least, you still seem to want "us", whoever that is, to "put our heads together" and come up with an end-run.

                You first.

                (and I ain't puttin' my head in any group you're in).
                Well, once again you misinterpreted what I said and built an elaborate rant on it, but I'll do my best to respond...

                In reference to point 1: Yes, I was referring to skin graft surgery where skin is expanded on a separate area of the body and the excess transplanted to where it's needed. I wasn't referring to the transplant part though, only the skin expansion part... growing that extra skin to be transplanted takes only a few months with an implanted expander. We cannot use an implant to expand the penile skin due to the anatomical limitations you mentioned, but considering the vast difference in growth rate... 3 months as opposed to 10+ years, it seems obvious that the body is capable of generating new tissue at a much faster rate than the average foreskin restoration.

                In reference to point 2: In the procedure I'm referring to, once again a balloon expander is implanted under the scalp, expanding the portion that still has hair on it until it's big enough to be surgically extended across the bald portion of the head. Again, I'm not talking about the surgery part, only the fact that the expansion process takes only a few months to grow enough skin to cover a bald spot. Once again, much faster than foreskin restoration.

                In reference to point 3: You're making a lot of assumptions there, for a guy who claims to speak 100% fact. You're right about implanted expanders being incompatible with penises though.

                Skin, scalp, lips, internal organs, even bones have been expanded... and all of them get done in a fraction of the time it takes to complete foreskin restoration. Now I don't claim to be any expert who knows shit, but I just can't believe that this one piece of skin we're working with doesn't have the same expansion capabilities as the rest of the body. I could be wrong, but quitting based on assumption rather than trial and error just isn't my thing.

                I don't expect to invent a system that can complete restoration in a few months... or even a year. You guys are taking my meager hopes and blowing them up into wild grandiose pipe dreams. I'm talking about maximizing potential, which may not be much. Maybe a 10% improvement. Maybe only 5%. Maybe 200%? I don't know what the fucking limits are... I just see a high probability that a better way exists, and I want to look for it. If you're not interested, that's fine. But I'm a perfectionist... if I can improve something even a little bit, I want to.

                Don't rely on me though... I'm not very smart, I move slow, and I have a lot of other interests that take priority over foreskin restoration. I probably won't be the guy to invent the next addition to the foreskin restoration arsenal.

                I hope this takes care of Greg's concerns as well.

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                • #23
                  "
                  I just can't believe that this one piece of skin we're working with doesn't have the same expansion capabilities as the rest of the body."

                  Perfectly understandable. We all want this to be quicker. We all get envious that what seems to be so easy for other situations, is so difficult for us to achieve. I think everyone here is with you on this. Unfortunately, just because we want something, and believe it should be possible, does not necessarily match reality. That can make it frustrating of course...

                  "...quitting based on assumption rather than trial and error..."

                  I would argue against this statement. We are all experimenting, just not very effectively. It is hard to run well designed, controlled, double blind studies in foreskin restoration. Without that, we are stuck with poorly designed experiments. Still useful, but less so. and, when you have less useful experiments, you do not progress as fast in understanding and finding the best solution, assuming that a better solution actually exists.

                  But I do not think it is fair to say that people are quitting. We are doing what you ask for, within the limits and constraints we have. That is why we now have a lot more methods than when I started this. Men are not accepting the status quo, and are experimenting to see if they can improve, that we have so many methods, and this forum has helped men achieve their goals.

                  Now, if you really mean that you are frustrated and wish we could get to our goals faster, and encourage men to be innovative and experimental, I think most here will agree with your sentiment.

                  BTW, thanks for asking if you covered my concerns. Hang in there, you will be as successful as quickly as you can be. In the end, that is, I think, something to take some comfort in.

                  Regards

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Reality

                    There is a basic reality in clinical skin expansion that you are missing. Actually, a set of realities, which makes clinical skin expansion a different beast from shaft skin expansion via tugging. I have to go the long way around to explain why.

                    Here's your first problem: you are trying, consciously or unconsciously, to equate the two; what they do in a hospital, and what we do at home. You can't. They're different, and this is true not just because clinical expansion uses expanders. Expanders are a method, only. They aren't some magical device imparting "speed" per se. They're used to affect "larger", not "faster", although obviously these two tactics are associated. For the most part, this "larger area" strategy is based on the surgeon's concern in covering a wound or defect as soon as possible. This sounds like "faster", right? Not so.

                    Clinical skin expansion is problematic. When this indirect "faster" happens due to the use of an expander, it commonly produces substandard tissue. This is a recognized and commonly experienced downside (aside from the pain caused to the patient). In fact, science is still trying to address this. If nothing else, the connective tissue lying under skin doesn't form naturally. And a dense capsule of tissue forms around the expander, which also can easily cause problems. Add to this pain and the risks associated with surgery, et voila, significant downside. Why do I mention this?

                    Because of his concern, the surgeon is willing to superstretch that tissue. This is a process where the existing tissues are thinned by stretching, NOT growth. You are not looking at "natural" here, your are looking at "faster". Superstretching risks substandard tissues, and necrosis, another common result. "Faster" turns out to be a big problem. The surgeon is willing to accept this usually because that wound in particular, and the defect, risks infection. You do NOT want a nosocomical infection, considering the reservoir of bad bugs that hospitals represent. The surgeon want to cover things as fast as he can. Risky. We want "fast" unless we're aware of what this brings to a biological tissue. We don't want funky tissue. "Faster" isn't what the average member here thinks it is. The surgeon goes "fast" via a method which produces "larger", and we go slower due to the only possible method available to us, the upside being a full compliment of natural tissues, and no risk. You want good tissues on your dick.

                    Now ... to address your second assumption: you seem to think that other tissues have "the same expansion capabilities". Source? They don't. Epidermis has, by far, a natural ability to expand, ie grow more of itself due to the stimulus of tension. Does bone? Yes and no. Yes, you can "expand" bone with a lot of difficulty,or fail because it is resistant, but you need special apparatus. BUT, the usual technique only partially utilizes true expansion. The usual techniques of clinical fracture and bone seeding are also used. Does this represent the kind of "capability" that skin has? No. Absolutely not. Skin is much easier to expand. And as far as clinical expansion of "internal organs" goes, have an example of true expansion?

                    We do what we can do, in the way that we do it, and we enjoy good tissues, no pain or infection, and the relative ease of method (what's simpler than fingers?). The clinic does what it does, due to the risks involved if nothing is done, and uses methods with their own inherent risks. Remember, clinical skin expansion isn't done on a whim. There has to be a scenario of risk already in place, or skin expansion isn't done at all. So to put clinical expansion of other tissues, in other areas of the body, up as an example of what should be an example for us, is to misunderstand the entire realm of clinical skin expansion, not to mention misunderstands restoration.
                    The bolded line up there contradicts the first argument you ever had with me in the old "exponential growth" thread, lol. But whatever.

                    Anyway, you obviously haven't looked into the many applications of skin expansion in cosmetic surgery. Now, I think cosmetic surgery is stupid, but the fact is that fully functional tissues have been created through expansion, for recreational purposes. The "substandard" qualities come from the transplanting of that skin. If you cut a piece of skin off and re-attach it, it ain't never gonna be the same, no matter how good a job you did. We're not cutting anything up though, just expanding it where it is. And I see a high probability that we can improve our methods at this. NOT A CERTAINTY. Just a probability that is high enough to be worth looking into.

                    Stop blowing my ideas out of proportion. It's fucking annoying.

                    Once again I'll remind you, because you seem to have skimmed over it again... I'm not expecting to see foreskin get done in a few months, or even a year. I'm expecting to see an increase of maybe 10%. More might be possible but I'm not that optimistic. I know average people don't give a fuck about 10%, but it makes a big difference, not just in FR but in all areas of life. Improve anything you do regularly by 10%, and that adds up to a major difference in the long run. Knocking a ten year endeavor down to nine is absolutely worth the effort, in my opinion. Maybe your opinion differs, and that's okay. We're not all perfectionists.

                    Lastly, you wanted an example of internal organ expansion. Gastric bypass surgery. The stomach is reduced to a tiny size so you can't eat too much, but this commonly fails because the person continues to eat as much as they physically can, causing their remaining stomach to expand up to a size that gets them fat again. This unwanted expansion happens fast... one to two years. And it's a lot more tissue than you need to cover a penis.

                    There's another example you might have seen if you spent a lot of time on dirty websites... It's amazing how many guys have taken it far enough to get an entire arm, you know, up there. Not the prettiest example of internal tissue expansion, but a valid one.

                    I'll admit that I shouldn't have included bone expansion in my list, because that's a different procedure entirely which involves cutting the bone and forcing it to fill in the gap created to make it longer. Not very relevant here.

                    Gotta say it a third fucking time because you're probably forgot while thinking about arms up asses... I see a conservatively 12 to 1 difference in expansion rates between foreskin and every other bodily tissue people have managed to expand. Other tissues have been expanded at least 1200% faster than penile skin. I do not expect myself or anyone to improve restoration rates by 1200%. But I firmly believe that out of that 1200%, we can at least manage to get 10%. Come on.

                    Just got to get our shit together and figure out the right combination of tension force, time under tension, and methods of applying said tension.

                    It's like bodybuilding. Lift a heavy object every day and yes, you will build muscle. But lift the right object the right amount of reps with the right posture the right number of days per week, while eating the right diet, and you will build more muscle in less time than the guy following the philosophy of "just lift".

                    I know expanding skin is a totally different mechanism than building muscle, but I also know that someone who tugs with the right tension using the right technique for the right amount of time per day will grow faster than someone who "just tugs". Anyone with a shred of common sense would be able to figure that one out. What I'm interested in is figure out what all the optimal parameters are for maximum growth. How can you argue against that?

                    P.S. I said MAXIMUM, not MIRACULOUS. Maximum may not be much. I don't claim to know what the limits are. But I want the maximum even it's only a small improvement.

                    Don't be blowing my ideas out of proportion anymore. I've had it with that shit.

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                    • #25
                      NOICE!
                      PROGRESS GALLERY

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                      • #26
                        I bumped this thread for the epicness of it, and also for the one of the best results photos I have seen yet. Thanks and kudos to retired member Tormod.

                        Scroll up to see a picture of a restored penis using the T-Tape method. Unbelievably encouraging.
                        Last edited by salamander6773; 10-13-2019, 10:04 AM.
                        PROGRESS GALLERY

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