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Growers vs Showers and skin required to restore.

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  • Growers vs Showers and skin required to restore.

    Wonder if showers (those that have very minimal or none length distance from flaccid to erect) are the ones easiest to achieve complete restoration with the least amount of skin growth.
    Being a grower I find the skin restored has much elasticity and hence needs more skin growth - maybe more skin was taken during IRC.
    Thoughts?

  • #2
    For some of us who've lurked on older forums over the years, this is kinda nostolgic; haven't seen this issue mentioned for a long time. So what do I know about it? Not much. It was a topic never settled, and I have pretty much just guesses. However.........

    I think this might have some importance if you are tugging for erect coverage. But wait......would it, even then? I have to say "no".

    If you think about it, the distance from your scar line to the end of your glans (and a little farther) is the basic measurement; that's how much you have to cover with skin/mucosa, doubled. Does this differ between growers and showers? No, these two categories (grower and shower) are defined by something different from the distance from scar line to tip. Scar line to tip is just a certain distance. "Grower and shower" is the definition of how much a penis changes from resting state (flaccid) to erection, NOT the scar line/tip distance which has to be covered. See?

    In other words, both types (at rest) can be equal to each other, or different from each other, because the distance isn't determined by type. This distance is determined by.......distance. The type may change, but the distance, from scar line to tip, never changes for an individual. He needs what he needs, regardless of what type he is.

    Example: if a grower needs 3 inches (actually 6 inches) from scar line to tip, and a shower needs the same distance because he measured 3 inches from scar line to tip, then this is what they both need, and while it probably won't change in any significant way with erection, if you are tugging for full and reliable flaccid coverage the distance is what's important, not the change from a resting state. Confusing, but it's a matter of distance, not change in erection length.

    Same applies to girth.
    Last edited by Reality; 06-08-2018, 03:15 PM.

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    • #3
      Thanks, but one factor missing is the grower may have more elastic type skin which retracts easier, so to achieve glans coverage they would need even more skin if the skin was stretched out and then compared.

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      • #4
        Not really, skin is skin. One "type" has skin just like the other "type", unless that type is visiting from off planet somewhere .

        If by "stretched out" you are referring to FEC, or something similar, then again, while FEC is intrinsically inaccurate, skin is still skin. If you are a human being then you have a basic combination of tissues and organs (blood vessels, etc), and any difference between one guy and the next will be very, very minor, if there's any at all; generally speaking there won't be any difference. UNDER the skin you can see some age or racial differences (waiting for the inevitable PC pushback), but that's under the skin, not skin itself.

        And just to head off the usual argument, elasticity of skin is a long standing restoration misunderstanding of how tension affects skin. Some guys think that the more elastic skin is, then.....fill in the blank. But here's the thing: remember that it's the resistance of skin to stretching out that causes the deformation of skin, which triggers the internal program. You have to go beyond the usual stretch of skin to get additional growth. If skin was truly more elastic, for anybody, (and it isn't, especially for one type vs the other) then there would be less resistance to tension because it would be all loose, flabby, not stretched out to max, and the force of that tension would be smothered, and, the internal program wouldn't be triggered.

        But that said, growers don't have "stiffer" skin, and showers don't have looser skin, or vice versa. We, all of us, just have human skin, and thankfully, this allows us to restore. In virtually all cases, while the glass can be half empty (we were circumcised), it's also half full (we have a natural ability to grow more skin).

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        • #5
          Just because I want to start a riot, I will note that a shower might have more penile skin than a grower (assuming same erect size and similar cuts) so under the assumption that proportional growth is true, then the shower would grow skin faster.

          Reality doesn't believe in proportional growth. I don't know enough to argue either way. But some people do think proportional growth happens, and those people would say whoever has more skin under tension will grow skin faster. And Reality is also going to say that the application of tension is very localized and so even if you have more skin that doesn't mean you have more under tension, but I don't understand this argument, I just assume he's right so I don't incur his wrath.

          But beyond all this, Reality, why don't you think it would make a difference for erect coverage? I agree that it probably doesn't make a difference for flaccid coverage. It would seem to me that a grower starts with 2 inches of skin needs a certain amount of skin for flaccid coverage, maybe 4 inches of skin or whatever, but upon erection might need 7 inches of skin. Whereas a shower might have 4 inches of skin but need 6 inches for flaccid coverage, then upon erection needs 7 inches. So they both need to grow 2 inches of skin for flaccid coverage, but the shower only needs 1 additional inch for erect coverage and the grower needs 3 additional inches.

          I mean, the whole "argument" is not really that important. Everyone has to grow however much skin they need, whether one person will reach their goals faster than the other doesn't change anything, one person just has a better hand dealt to them in life and there's nothing the other guy can do about it. Just curious on your perspective on that particular erect coverage point. Or were you just saying it's not important even if there is a difference?

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          • #6
            My wrath? lol I don't have a way of wreaking my wrath through a T3 line (or whatever it is nowadays). I always invite discussion, and anyhow it's OzVic's thread.

            I certainly agree with your last paragraph. It's exactly the bottom line point in all of this. At the end of the day, or actually at the end of the decade, you will have to grow what you have to grow.

            I wanted to make a distinction between flaccid coverage and erect coverage, for several reasons. There have been a very few guys (on forums) who I trust as truthful observers and who are shooting for erect coverage, or perhaps have reached this goal. It's my impression, though, that this isn't the usual goal. It's my impression that full, reliable flaccid coverage (and maybe a bit more) is more the usual goal.

            Erect coverage wasn't my goal and here's why: with my limited experience in what intact guys have told me about how they approach sex, to a man they said they pulled their foreskin back before penetration. They were the owners of what Nature gave them, so I listened. And.......it struck me that full flaccid coverage was the only shortcut possible for a circ'd guy, in this whole thing. In other words, flaccid coverage gave me all the sensation increase I will ever get, it gave me the "look" (down the catwalk), and all in the shortest time possible, which of course is not so short. And I figured it would still give me any pluses I didn't know about at the time I set this goal. And it did. Returned function gave me much more than I knew about (remember, your brain's re interpretation is the other 90% of this thing). So I'm happy.

            But to your question, does a shower's penis, which is similar to his erect length, place less "pull back" on flaccid coverage because his "3 inches of needed skin" is all it takes to reach past the glans tip, thereby allowing more erect coverage (or something close to that) ... and, would a grower with full flaccid coverage (he has his 3 inches) see more pull back due to more length happening, which overcomes that 3 inches, thereby needing more skin to be grown to allow close to erect coverage? This is the issue.

            It's the issue, and I don't know the answer to it. This is where my "guesses" come into play. You can certainly see this happening in your mind, but you know how ideas are, all strong and shining until you get to the place where you actually find out in, uh, reality. So..........for me this is an open issue, unanswered, and because I'm happy, it's really only a theoretical issue, so it's not important to me personally, but if it's important to another individual, then it's up to them to describe what they've seen throughout their journey, and what they see now. Maybe someday someone will, but this whole thing takes so long that I think it will stay unanswered for a long time.

            Oh, and about the limited area of cells dividing; cells only some of which are in the right phase to divide? That's true. That happens with maintenance, and it's more true with additional cells dividing when the tissue is deformed by tension.

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            • #7
              Reality on my planet 🙄 the penile shaft has different types of skin from the base to the glans.
              In practice - not theory, the different skin types differ in their growth response to tension.
              So have to dismiss that all skin types grows the same.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by OzVic View Post
                Reality on my planet 🙄 the penile shaft has different types of skin from the base to the glans.
                In practice - not theory, the different skin types differ in their growth response to tension.
                So have to dismiss that all skin types grows the same.
                Not sure what you are referring to. If you mean the two tissues which human males have, ie shaft skin and mucosa, then my comments take this into consideration generally, with mucosa perhaps responding more slowly to cycles of tension. If you are throwing the raphe into the mix, then all god's human male creatures have a raphe, so again this is taken into consideration. Beyond that, nobody has any other kind of "skin" which is different from the next guy. In other words, you can have more of one, or more of the other, but stand every human male up in a lineup and they all, we all, have the same tissues. No variation from this, ever.

                But if you notice, you are now emphasizing skin "differences" and not so-called grower vs shower. Again, each type, be it grower or shower, have the same kinds of skin. And one type's skin mix is not more "elastic" than the other. This is the most basic fact regarding penises, there is no variation, and this has nothing to do with a grower needing more skin, or less, for erect coverage. Apples and oranges, as they used to say.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Reality View Post

                  Not sure what you are referring to. If you mean the two tissues which human males have, ie shaft skin and mucosa, then my comments take this into consideration generally, with mucosa perhaps responding more slowly to cycles of tension. If you are throwing the raphe into the mix, then all god's human male creatures have a raphe, so again this is taken into consideration. Beyond that, nobody has any other kind of "skin" which is different from the next guy. In other words, you can have more of one, or more of the other, but stand every human male up in a lineup and they all, we all, have the same tissues. No variation from this, ever.

                  But if you notice, you are now emphasizing skin "differences" and not so-called grower vs shower. Again, each type, be it grower or shower, have the same kinds of skin. And one type's skin mix is not more "elastic" than the other. This is the most basic fact regarding penises, there is no variation, and this has nothing to do with a grower needing more skin, or less, for erect coverage. Apples and oranges, as they used to say.
                  Interesting, I guess I'll explain myself ... when cold the base shaft skin does not pucker or behave in that manner in my case compared to more along shaft then we have the circ scar where the ridged band would have been, then the inner skin mucosa then the sulcus.
                  Agree the same skin would remain for inner between grower and shower.
                  But have to disagree on the amount of normal shaft skin left as this would be dependant on the doctor in IRC to properly mark the spot on a baby after they stimulated the baby to a full erection.
                  Since any error is multiplied x3 by adulthood -
                  My bet is that most don't bother along with the fact that a grower may have too much overhang when flaccid from a cosmetic circumcision "look".
                  Which way do you think the tired bored sick of screaming little shits doctor is going to err on ? Hence so many of us had insufficient skin thanks to IRC.

                  Hence my personal conclusion is a Shower has less skin to grow to complete flaccid coverage in the majority of cases and these guys should be the fastest restorers of the lot.

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                  • #10
                    Let's take this in order:

                    1. Not sure what you mean by "pucker" exactly. My shaft skin doesn't pucker noticeably either. Where shaft skin continues on to become scrotum, it does pucker more noticeably. Shaft skin and scrotal skin are the same thing, pretty much, though. If your scrotal skin was pulled up onto your shaft, then scrotal skin will recede a bit, perhaps more. But I don't think this has any part to play in the grower vs shower discussion.

                    2. Your scar line isn't where the ridged band used to be. The ridged band is at the far end of the foreskin, at the tip, and was cut off (or crushed off) during circumcision. Your scar line is where remaining shaft skin, and the remaining old inner mucosa are surgically butted together physically, so that they "mend" (heal) along this line. This makes the scar line a totally artificial landmark; just something that happens when the tissue you have left were joined back together. And, because it probably should be mentioned. When you grow more shaft skin, it will pucker where the skin tube is folded over. That is a promise to all restoring guys. Grow enough shaft skin to cover at least most of the glans and it will pucker. You will see this. I see this every day. I've seen a pucker, a narrowed down, tight pucker in the free skin beyond the glans tip, for years. You don't have to do anything for this, it's just the way your shaft skin acts, naturally.

                    3. Believe me, the physician (or his attending) who does the circumcision DOES NOT "stimulate" the neonate into having an erection. I don't know where you heard this, but it simply isn't true. So if you think about it, then some guess as to where a scar line would be when this baby reaches something like adulthood, isn't true either. Nobody does that. Again, I don't know where you got this, but this isn't even close to the real world.

                    4. Your emotion is getting the best of your logic. The sentence which begins "My bet......." has no basis in fact, either. There is only one of several methods of circumcision (in the clinical area), and any decision made on how to do the circ. is done according to what that specific method allows the physician to do. In other words, each method requires some of the foreskin to be removed, but it isn't done with any particular precision. This is why (because I've seen how things are done), that I say, if Medicine first defines the act of circumcision (it isn't defined yet) as the surgical procedure it is, and makes tissue sparing part of that definition, then we've arrived at one of the first important steps in phasing RIC out.

                    5. I get what you are referring to in your last sentence, but here's the thing. Your conclusion can't be based on your preceding premise because your preceding premises are false. That's just simple logic. And, remember what I said about growers vs showers when it comes to full erect coverage? Well, that's full erect coverage, not full flaccid coverage; you are referring to full flaccid coverage. You can't mix the two in this discussion. When you consider full flaccid coverage, the best guess is that, given an even playing ground, both will take about the same time, to grow the same amount of skin, because again, 6 inches of new skin is 6 inches of new skin. Whether your penis grows or shows when you have an erection has nothing to do with the 6 inches in full flaccid coverage. 6 inches from scar line to glans tip is.....6 inches. Both types need to grow that 6 inches to cover their glans.

                    But the issue becomes a little more uncertain when that glans tip swells past the 6 inches of new skin (rolled into a skin tube) due to an erection (for the grower)


                    So tug, folks. Go on tugging, and this issue will be settled for each guy individually, and you'll know what you need to do after that.
                    Last edited by Reality; 06-11-2018, 05:20 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Reality I'll correct you on item 3....... oh yes they do stimulate the infants penis unless you are not paying any attention at all?
                      They clean - swab it (Thoroughly) the idea being for the infant to get an erection so the Doc to gauge how much skin to remove etc. and also check for conditions that would void a IRC without a urologist review.

                      So your correct Reality they are not masturbating the infant but they are stimulating it by cleaning so I let you explain the difference on that one.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by OzVic View Post
                        Reality I'll correct you on item 3....... oh yes they do stimulate the infants penis unless you are not paying any attention at all?
                        They clean - swab it (Thoroughly) the idea being for the infant to get an erection so the Doc to gauge how much skin to remove etc. and also check for conditions that would void a IRC without a urologist review.

                        So your correct Reality they are not masturbating the infant but they are stimulating it by cleaning so I let you explain the difference on that one.
                        Seems kind of pointless though, because there is NO WAY to know how big that thing is gonna be when full it's grown. As a result TOO MUCH is often removed in many, many cases and in those that aren't some parents think they didn't remove enough and have a second cut done! They should just BAN this practice all together.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by OzVic View Post
                          Reality I'll correct you on item 3....... oh yes they do stimulate the infants penis unless you are not paying any attention at all?
                          They clean - swab it (Thoroughly) the idea being for the infant to get an erection so the Doc to gauge how much skin to remove etc. and also check for conditions that would void a IRC without a urologist review.

                          So your correct Reality they are not masturbating the infant but they are stimulating it by cleaning so I let you explain the difference on that one.
                          Uh, no, the idea is to clean it, when they clean it. Beyond that, if you were familiar with the devices used, you'd know that whether there's a "half-ie" or not, pulling the foreskin distally is the intent, leaving the penis itself out of the field of operation. Just that simple. I know there are guys who think this is a sexual thing based on their own personal twist, but it's a routine procedure (RIC), not some satanic porn.

                          And parsecskin is right, there is no way to tell what the future penis size will be, nor does that matter. Clean, chop, cauterize if necessary, dress, move on. If the future meant anything in this routine, then that would be a consideration which make the whole thing less routine, and a bit more of a defined procedure, which we don't have, and very, very much should have. This would move towards circ as being a tissue sparing procedure, and never a routine. Take "routine" out of RIC, by defining what can be done and cannot be done, and why, and, by all means, stopping the payment for routine anything, and guess what..........

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