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How much tension?

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  • Reality
    replied
    LOL! My apologies. I have a confrontational bent, I can't deny that; clashing is my go-to, certainly after all the shit I've received on this and the old forum, primarily from little-kid newbies, used to the social media way of doing things, and from blow-hard self promoters trying to bullshit their way into the Restoration Hall of Fame. You have a place there, however, in the Hall, for your calm dialogue. The only thing I can add is, please be true to what you feel is the right thing to do and say.

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  • greg_b
    replied
    Yes, experiment. Start with whatever you are comfortable with, perhaps less is you are an aggressive speed demon. Try it for a month or so and see how things are going. Growing skin? No injuries? Good, keep doing that.

    If not, try a different amount of tension and see what happens after a month or so. Repeat as needed, until you have a confident feel for the amount of tension you need to grow skin effectively.

    Note that my above advice is focused on the amount of tension, because that has been the key variable for me. But other variables can be experimented with as well, such as time under tension, number of cycles, etc. My advice is to focus on the amount of tension first, then move to other variables if you want.

    Regards from vanilla pudding central...

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  • Markken
    replied
    In my personal experience I can say both of the last comments from Reality and Ron are both spot on.

    Have a beverage, of your choice ,while you let that sink in.

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  • admin
    replied
    Originally posted by admin View Post
    TLC has a relatively new packing system called the Packer / Stacker https://tlctugger.com/product/vlc-packer-stacker-kit/ which does allow fine-tuning by changing device length in 3mm increments.
    Originally posted by Reality View Post
    Do you mean fine tuning in weight related increments, ie ounces, etc.?
    With ANY tension source, we would like to fine-tune the amount of tension experimentally. ASSUMING we start with a device that fits and is appropriate for the slack we have, the 4-Hour Rule http://TLCTugger.com/4-hour-rule/ says start with zero.

    Then the rule says for each tension setting you try, IF you can wear it with no unwanted effects (pain, marks, loosening) for 4 hours, then you have license to try increasing tension by one small measurable increment for next time. For a device with Pushing action, that might another 1/8" of Pusher extension. For a device like the Packer / Stacker that would be forcing your skin to cover a device that's 3mm longer (because you added a TLC Selects spacer https://tlctugger.com/?s=cyl-x&post_type=product). If the tension source is weight, then add an increment of weight.

    So then the rule says, keep increasing by an experimental increment until you can't get through 4 hours. That's when you back up to the prior setting. Even the perfect setting will SOMETIMES get uncomfortable or come loose before you were planning to remove it because there are variables we can't lock down.

    Methods that don't allow for an experimental fine-tuning should be considered advanced, for experienced tuggers who know what productive gentle tension feels like. This would include the springs mode of the TLC-X and most Air methods and some packing methods.

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  • Reality
    replied
    Look, I've promoted experimentation: so in the that spirit, do what you think is working. If you think that some indirect measurement (by using marks or amount of packing, or whatever) is working for you, then go for it, use it. But RELY ON YOUR OWN EXPERIMENTATION, AND YOUR OWN RESULTS. THIS IS NOT A SCIENCE! As the member Distalero used to say, IT'S AN ART! Science relies on measurement. Art does not, it is based in personal experience, and relying on what pleases you. Enjoy this practice! Don't stress over a method (science, measuring)!

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  • Reality
    replied
    Originally posted by admin View Post


    TLC has a relatively new packing system called the Packer / Stacker https://tlctugger.com/product/vlc-packer-stacker-kit/ which does allow fine-tuning by changing device length in 3mm increments.
    Do you mean fine tuning in weight related increments, ie ounces, etc.?

    1. Here's the problem with "measuring": Say your system (whatever it is, fish-scale, marks on a device or a headboard, or your thigh, or whatever) uses weight. How is this weight relevent unless it's associated with a physical sensation located in your shaft skin? In other words, the sensation is what counts (it's either "too little", "yeah, just right", or "ooo, too much"). With weight here's the thing: that number (in ounces or whatever) has nothing to do with ANYTHING unless it's associated with sensation. A number is only a number; it doesn't impart anything special. As long as the weight deforms the tissue it's fine; knowing some number associated with that deformation means nothing; only the deformation means something.

    2. Does 10 ounces indicated on your measuring device indicate an actual 10 ounces placed on your tissue? No, the tissue (shaft skin or mucosa) stretches, in order to resist that weight (or tension). That's simple physics, and the anatomical/physiological property of skin.

    3. If your system is based on marks on some surface then that is simply transferring visible deformation of tissue, to marks on a surface. Marks are not directly related to your force (weight or tension). OR, IT'S EVEN MORE UNRELATED TO ANY MEASUREMENT IN MEANINGFUL INCREMENTS IF THE TISSUE IS STRETCHING. Again, marks aren't the guide, tissue deformation is the guide, and the sensation that tissue deformation gives the guy deforming his tissue. I would rather encourage that guy to go by how it all feels (which is where the OP began his journey; it's INSTINCTIVE) because not only does sensation directly relate to deformation, it is also a safety method: too much, OW!; too little, EH; just right, YEAH!

    4. At best, you can directly relate a mark, or amount of packing, with a sensation (but again, you are really using that sensation to judge the packing amount, and staying safe in the process.

    It has been my observation over the years that guys try to use "science" in restoration, and you can't do that in any specific way. Science in our practice can only describe the internal program which we try to stimulate, NOT provide some magical, sciency way of stimulation.

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  • LTPug
    replied
    So I am going to post more on what I have figured out. Nothing wrong with the TLCx at all it is perfect in every way. It's the learning curve to the new user I guess. I found that my FEC is right on the line or tab over to use the TLCx, what I found was that the skin elasticity was lacking, so when using the device the skin wanted to pull back. So after using he TLCx for 2 days in 10 plus hours increments the skin become much more elastic and now it no longer slips off. As far as tension, I am learning what is comfortable for me, I get a nice gentle tug and I can feel a decent feeling in skin, but its that nice feeling/sensation of skin stretching. Does that makes sense I am sure it does. But my goodness I love this device, I believe I made a wise investment in my journey and in my money. I would recommend to anyone whom is wanting to take the same journey, BUY THE TLCx, it is amazing and best of all it really works!

    Leave a comment:


  • admin
    replied
    Originally posted by Reality View Post
    you can't measure tension.
    With weights we can certainly come close to an analog for the stress we're inducing.

    With ANY tension source, we would like to fine-tune the amount of tension experimentally, whether we have a number for the amount of tension, or a stand-in like "mm of Pusher extension" as an analog to the tension amount.

    Some tension sources present challenges to experimental fine-tuning. These would include manual tugging, most packing methods, using springs with the TLC-X, getting outer-facing skin tension straplessly/weightlessly with just the inner-skin Pushing part of a bi-directional device, etc.

    TLC has a relatively new packing system called the Packer / Stacker https://tlctugger.com/product/vlc-packer-stacker-kit/ which does allow fine-tuning by changing device length in 3mm increments.

    Leave a comment:


  • Markken
    replied
    For my 2 cents.

    I have a high tolerance, or am just prone to pushing myself from weight lifting in the past... idk...

    I got a TLC-x from Ron, couldn't use it at first. Canister and manual for a bit and I finally could.

    But after I started using it what I found that worked best, for myself, was to increase the tension as I wore it.

    Get a good fit and slight tension, 20-30 minutes later increase the tension a bit (it's a personal feel thing on how to slowly increase it, you know your body better than anyone else could), after a bit increase it again, so on and so forth.

    If I wanted to go by the CI Index, which I don't (I don't personally feel/believe either one is a correct way to measure progress) I would be a solid CI-7 after an hour of stretching, pushing a CI-8.

    Best advice, get a nice grab/fit. Then slowly over 10-20 minute increments slightly adjust the tension until towards the end when you slip out/quit. When slip out happens refit device and start again.

    I have gotten to a pretty comfortable solid tugging sensation without causing any pain that has let me see some nice progress with that method so far.

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  • KragDragon
    replied
    There really isn't much of a scientific method for judging tension. For me it's one of those things that comes instinctively... too little and it feels inadequate, too much and it gets unpleasant or painful. So, just increase tension until you're somewhere in the zone between inadequate feeling and uncomfortably hard, and you should be good.

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  • Reality
    replied
    What do you mean by "how much"? Do you want a number? there are guys here who will tell you that you can measure the tension applied, but they are wrong. The owner of this site says "gentle tension" because he knows you can't measure tension. I would tell you that you are on the right path when you say it didn't feel "like a lot". What I (and a few others) say is apply tension to the point where it feels like a slight burn, but I'm (and some others are) a proponent of cycles of moderate to strong tension, NOT PROLONGED STRONG TENSION! But here's the thing: you have to experiment. Restoration is all about experimentation. Even vanilla pudding greg b will tell you that. So experiment with the "sweet spot" tension in cycles, and forget about "how much". YOU are the judge of how much. Trust yourself and your own senses, and your ability to judge for yourself.

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  • LTPug
    started a topic How much tension?

    How much tension?

    So I got my TLCx today, and I put the strap on, didn't feel like a lot of tension so I keep trying to get it right. I feel like this is a very light amount of tension versus when you tug by hand to by pill bottle set up. I used to put a lot on I guess, cause to me I feel like I Need more and this doesn't feel like a lot.

    Can someone help me, I am trying to find what is appropriate amount of tension that should be applied. if I do more I tend to slip out, if I do to little I don't feel like it a lot, still slips but I think the skin needed to limber up more, I notice the more it was on the more it stayed in place for longer. So the question is again. How much and how to tell what is correct.

    Thank you
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