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  • MSM cream: good or bad?

    Hi, so I have an inquiry that I'm not sure anyone on this forum can answer, but here goes. For about 6 months I have been using MSM cream (a sulfur compound-based cream) that is purported to speed up regeneration of skin and collagen tissue; I usually use it once or twice a day, morning and night mostly. I have been steadily growing new skin, but my routines and the methods I use have also changed drastically during the last 6 months. Therefore I cannot be sure that the cream is a substantial accelerator of my growth, or if it's the other variables. Now, because I don't know much about biology, I don't know whether or not the mitosis we strive for is aided by faster skin regeneration. Do we need to have spaces between the cells for a certain amount of time before they're filled in by new cells? Would using a skin regeneration accelerator like MSM close up these spaces before mitosis can occur? The only reason I even thought of this was from reading a post on Reddit's FR sub forum, where a user stated he doesn't use MSM cream for the exact theory I mention above: He of course didn't cite any biology sources and was simply steering clear "just in case." If anyone with knowledge of or background in biology has any insight on this, I'm all ears!

  • #2
    Originally posted by BackToNatural View Post
    Hi, so I have an inquiry that I'm not sure anyone on this forum can answer, but here goes. For about 6 months I have been using MSM cream (a sulfur compound-based cream) that is purported to speed up regeneration of skin and collagen tissue; I usually use it once or twice a day, morning and night mostly. I have been steadily growing new skin, but my routines and the methods I use have also changed drastically during the last 6 months. Therefore I cannot be sure that the cream is a substantial accelerator of my growth, or if it's the other variables. Now, because I don't know much about biology, I don't know whether or not the mitosis we strive for is aided by faster skin regeneration. Do we need to have spaces between the cells for a certain amount of time before they're filled in by new cells? Would using a skin regeneration accelerator like MSM close up these spaces before mitosis can occur? The only reason I even thought of this was from reading a post on Reddit's FR sub forum, where a user stated he doesn't use MSM cream for the exact theory I mention above: He of course didn't cite any biology sources and was simply steering clear "just in case." If anyone with knowledge of or background in biology has any insight on this, I'm all ears!
    All ears ain't enough You need to go online and use your eyes to read everything you can find about this crap. Here's a quote from WebMD:

    "MSM is POSSIBLY SAFE for most people when taken by mouth for 3 months or less when applied to the skin in combination with other ingredients, such as silymarin or hyaluronic acid, and tea tree oil for up to 20 days. In some people, MSM might cause nausea, diarrhea, bloating, fatigue, headache, insomnia, itching, or worsening of allergy symptoms". And they're being very tolerant here, not to mention vague as hell. You can find stronger language against use of MSM out there. When something is promoted as a panacea for every part of the body, then you can bet it's all bullshit. Three months or less: guess how many months it takes to even see noticeable growth.

    But to answer your questions about mitosis, your description of how this person thinks it happens isn't at all what is actually known by science. Creams (and more recently "salves"), and other hoped-for magic bullets are virtually all useless for our purposes (there is one topical that works indirectly on blood flow to the area constricted by tension), and for mitotic reaction in general. There is no way to make this whole restoration thing go faster, or somehow better. Just tug. It is the irritation of tension that causes your skin to grow more of itself. Nothing else. Pseudo science just wants to sell you something.

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    • #3
      I've been using MSM cream with collagen and I have added some raw coconut oil to it as well. It's a great moisturizer and conditioner. Can't say if it speeds up mitosis though. Seems like it does.

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      • #4
        Consider this: everybody hopes that some outside influence, some chemical or combination of chemicals, will affect mitosis by speeding it up. But in order to think that, you have to be unaware of how mitosis happens, and especially how mitosis as the result of minor trauma happens.

        Tension is minor trauma. Your skin responds to that irritation with increased mitosis because it wants to counteract that tension by growing more of itself. "Ha! Pull on this now, you tension, you" it says . Thing to remember is, this is a natural, internal process. It was there long before you thought about restoration. It has it's own stimulation, it's own chemical makeup, and it's own rules to follow. So it's a process that's sort of sealed in; a process that is internal only.

        To simplify a description of this process, placing tension on skin causes an internal (and complex) flow of chemicals of the specific type, in the right order, which travel to the right area. Again, all very specific. You, the big you, can't influence that with some outside chemical. (well, you can poison yourself with chemicals, or burn or otherwise wound your skin with chemicals). Outside chemicals are not part of that internal natural flow of chemicals. Add to that the fact that skin is primarily designed to act as a barrier to outside chemical influence and you have something that just doesn't work. You won't get what you hoped for.

        When you ask the creams-and-salves promoters (who are apparently unaware of the natural process, even in the simplified description) they all say something like "Sure, we know that tension is the key cause for mitosis", but really, in the back of their minds, they are hoping, and in some cases insisting, that tension and "something else" ie some chemical, act as triggers. Not so. Only minor trauma is the trigger, and only the internal process is the result. This has been studied scientifically in a lab, under the rigors of the scientific method. The internet, on the other hand, is a lumpy soup of misunderstanding and agenda (self promotion, and/or sales). But everybody is free to do what they want. I'd suggest reading about it all, then making up your mind.

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        • #5
          First, thanks for the replies! Second, I've been using a 15% MSM cream which also contains many other things that promote healthy skin, like vitamin E, aloe, etc. So I'm certainly not applying pure MSM to my penis. I have done research on MSM and it is medically approved for use on the skin and joints, since MSM itself is a naturally occurring substance in many foods and in the body. Therefore I have no fear of "dangers" associated with the use of this cream.

          Going back to my original post though, I wasn't particularly asking if MSM creams will speed up mitosis, though I'm sorry if my overly wordy post made it seem that way. I am more wondering if using a topical cream which speeds up the "healing" of skin will INTERFERE with mitosis by closing the gaps between the cells (created BY the tension) before mitosis can occur fully. I have indeed seen that the MSM cream accelerates my skin healing when I apply it to minor cuts and scrapes, or acne scars etc. In fact one of the main uses for MSM is to reduce the development of scar tissue on fresh wounds, with some studies claiming minor benefit for old scars (not much). I would have to contest the notion that no topical creams or substances can affect the internal workings of the skin. Skin absorbs many substances and surely some of these will be used by skin cells and tissues in one way or another. I'm not a biologist so I don't know specifics, but I know MSM cream has in fact aided in healing / scar formation as I noted above, although only to a minor extent, admittedly.

          I am unable to locate any research or studies indicating if ANY cream, let alone MSM, has a positive or negative effect on mitosis created by tension. This is what I'm very curious about. If anything I'll keep using the cream as a good moisturizer.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by BackToNatural View Post
            First, thanks for the replies! Second, I've been using a 15% MSM cream which also contains many other things that promote healthy skin, like vitamin E, aloe, etc. So I'm certainly not applying pure MSM to my penis. I have done research on MSM and it is medically approved for use on the skin and joints, since MSM itself is a naturally occurring substance in many foods and in the body. Therefore I have no fear of "dangers" associated with the use of this cream.

            Going back to my original post though, I wasn't particularly asking if MSM creams will speed up mitosis, though I'm sorry if my overly wordy post made it seem that way. I am more wondering if using a topical cream which speeds up the "healing" of skin will INTERFERE with mitosis by closing the gaps between the cells (created BY the tension) before mitosis can occur fully. I have indeed seen that the MSM cream accelerates my skin healing when I apply it to minor cuts and scrapes, or acne scars etc. In fact one of the main uses for MSM is to reduce the development of scar tissue on fresh wounds, with some studies claiming minor benefit for old scars (not much). I would have to contest the notion that no topical creams or substances can affect the internal workings of the skin. Skin absorbs many substances and surely some of these will be used by skin cells and tissues in one way or another. I'm not a biologist so I don't know specifics, but I know MSM cream has in fact aided in healing / scar formation as I noted above, although only to a minor extent, admittedly.

            I am unable to locate any research or studies indicating if ANY cream, let alone MSM, has a positive or negative effect on mitosis created by tension. This is what I'm very curious about. If anything I'll keep using the cream as a good moisturizer.
            I understand what you are asking in both posts, but the problem here is using vague, non scientific terms. You seem to want an answer that you think you already know, and you resist one in more precise (not to mention demonstrated) terms.

            So, voila: You originally used the word "regeneration" of skin in your first post. The only regeneration of skin that exists, anywhere, anytime, is the natural regeneration found via mitosis; those two terms are essentially synonymous when discussing skin formation and repair. The use of the word "regeneration" is meaningless (non scientific) when used in association with anything else, be it process or product. "Regeneration" is NOT separate from the mitotic process. However, you seem to be using the word regeneration as a process that is somehow separate from mitosis in your original post. As you can see, regeneration isn't some separate process from mitosis. Think of it as "mitosis/regeneration".

            Now you are using the word "healing" apparently as a substitution for regeneration, and as separate from both mitosis and regeneration (which aren't separate). The word "healing" has no specific meaning (ie, vague) in a biological sense because too much is known specifically about mitosis and the repair process. Interestingly (and you should hear this), "healing" in association with natural skin repair (AKA mitosis) actually INCLUDES scar formation. Scars are very natural; they happen all the time. See how changing from one vague term to another sets the discussion adrift?

            Lastly, if you go back and actually read the entire WebMD article, you will see what I mean by MSM as being touted as a panacea (almost the second coming) for damn near everything. That's ALWAYS the indicator that you are talking about only anecdote (at best) and popular nonsense otherwise, and NOT what is known through repeated research. Want indirect proof? Read your last statement again: you, yourself, say you can't find any mention of scientific evidence that creams, lotions, et al have any effect on on skin. Apparently you are only including commercial products in this. There's a reason you can't find anything: doesn't exist, because Science knows the mitotic/regeneration process too well; doesn't include the commercial product hype the layman sees everywhere. (You skipped over my reference to the one topical found to indirectly influence mitosis/regeneration/"healing").

            And the "space between cells" theory is just that, a theory, and again an oversimplification (vague) of what was once hypothesized.

            But whatever. Your question could be seen as a good one if you divorce it from the misunderstanding on how skin responds to minor trauma, but it's one that nobody here knows, because it's one that science hasn't asked (for the reason stated).
            Last edited by A New Naki; 11-13-2015, 12:10 PM.

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            • #7
              For the benefit of the (small ) readership thus far:

              http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supple...onylmethane%29

              Damn, gonna get myself some a this stuff, be so spiffed up and young I can punch that OB asshole in the nose when he suggests circ to my parents : )

              Comment


              • #8
                And for the benefit of those few who know how to read and recognize the qualified language of research so far (hint: need for human trials):

                http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11896744

                And for those who recognize the level of therapeutic interest (as in, lacking; but high interest in making money from commercial products):


                https://www.google.com/patents/US4477469

                But..........do what you want. If you wanted a science-based answer (seemed like you did because you said you did, ie "biology"), and you know how to recognize the literature from the realm of science, and how to recognize what it actually says and where it qualifies and gets vague-y, and you think that the product has some....."magical"......association with what science has discovered so far, well........then go for it. The risk is yours. My advice is to look for a DIRECT effect on the stratum basale and/or the cascade of factors that flow post tension trauma stimulation, and therefore a direct effect on mitosis as we practice it. Maybe you don't realize: every other layer in human epidermis is dying, or dead, and therefore unaffected by anything other that what is referred to as "skin softening", ie softening the layers of keratin of the outer layers, ie beauty stuff. NOT anything else.

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                • #9
                  Alright alright, I didn't mean for this to become a heated debate :P. I acknowledge your points. However, I will still continue to use my MSM/Vitamin E/Aloe cream as a moisturizer. If there really is no evidence that MSM affects mitosis, either positively OR negatively, then that's all I was trying to find out in the first place. So thank you or your detailed analysis. That being said, can you tell me the name of the topical "found to indirectly influence mitosis/regeneration/"healing"" that you mentioned in your posts? I would be interested in giving that a try!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It's called papaverine hydrochloride. It's a smooth muscle relaxant, used for arterial dilation mostly, has the same effect on lung tissue as well, could be found in the med room/pharmacy of most hospitals. A bit antiquated for that nowadays; other drugs used for this. It was also used as a treatment for ED, but that form was taken off the market years ago. I suppose you could find an empathetic PCP who will write a prescription for it, compounded in a topical (nothing that I know of to stop him in this), but my guess is that's pretty unlikely. It was used in a lab experiment (I haven't had the abstract for a long time; maybe Ron has access to it) where they experimented with it as an application to see if it allowed the constricted blood vessels of in vitro tissue under tension to open up, which it it did. This allowed more contact with the intrinsic factors called up by cycles of tension, resulting in a bit more tissue formation if I remember correctly. Their focus was using something as a lab tool in ongoing research. Blood flow is what we want; the blood vessels in the area of greatest tension (fingers/devices) also get smooshed (not a technical term ), but I personally don't think anyone doing our thing would see much increase.

                    By the way, the DMSO group think that their chemical allows this too, but all I can find is that it causes some vessel permeability, which is just the $10 word for leaky vessels ("open" in a bad way, leaking into the surrounding tissue) so isn't the same thing as 'blood flow'.

                    So, just the one drug, studied and classified specifically in association with a study on formation of human skin (think it was human epidermis; coulda been a piggie, pigs being the popular analog, not to mention a popular barbecue item).

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                    • #11
                      I have been restoring off and on for 20 years. I have grown about 6" of new skin (if measured when stretched) and am at about CI-8-9. I still want full coverage with pucker when erect and have only got about 3/4 glans coverage when hard, so I keep on tugging. I have (and do) experiment with all kinds of ideas to assist in restoration. One idea I have tried is msm. I have tried 100% MSM cream several times for 1 to 2 weeks at a time. What I discovered is that it helps take the mild pain of stretching the skin away very quickly, so I can return to my tugging routine more quickly. However, at the end of about a week, the skin becomes very tough to tug and much more force is required. Within two weeks, I have to take a break otherwise the skin is so resistant to stretching that the tugger pulls off. After about 3 weeks of rest the skin is pliable enough to tug again. However, when I pull the skin tight to measure it (as I always do) there is no significant change in length. So, I rarely apply msm or blue emu with msm for restoration. However, I will still use them once of twice to eliminate pain from stretched skin, if I want to have sex and not feel the "work out".

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                      • #12
                        Hmmm - spam post by "drjyoticlinic"
                        Tormod

                        Some of you may have had occasion to run into mathematicians and to wonder therefore how they got that way - Tom Lehrer

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tormod View Post
                          Hmmm - spam post by "drjyoticlinic"
                          Thanks for the reports all. It's been cleaned up.

                          Cheers.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Guest View Post

                            All ears ain't enough You need to go online and use your eyes to read everything you can find about this crap. Here's a quote from WebMD:

                            "MSM is POSSIBLY SAFE for most people when taken by mouth for 3 months or less when applied to the skin in combination with other ingredients, such as silymarin or hyaluronic acid, and tea tree oil for up to 20 days. In some people, MSM might cause nausea, diarrhea, bloating, fatigue, headache, insomnia, itching, or worsening of allergy symptoms". And they're being very tolerant here, not to mention vague as hell. You can find stronger language against use of MSM out there. When something is promoted as a panacea for every part of the body, then you can bet it's all bullshit. Three months or less: guess how many months it takes to even see noticeable growth.

                            But to answer your questions about mitosis, your description of how this person thinks it happens isn't at all what is actually known by science. Creams (and more recently "salves"), and other hoped-for magic bullets are virtually all useless for our purposes (there is one topical that works indirectly on blood flow to the area constricted by tension), and for mitotic reaction in general. There is no way to make this whole restoration thing go faster, or somehow better. Just tug. It is the irritation of tension that causes your skin to grow more of itself. Nothing else. Pseudo science just wants to sell you something.
                            Yea, had severe insomnia troubles with msm and general weakness. I also had complete chaos within my emotions probably due to lack of sleep. These hypnosis sessions were a true aid in those times https://sleephypnopill.com/. Might be of use for someone.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by broklee View Post

                              Yea, had severe insomnia troubles with msm and general weakness. I also had complete chaos within my emotions probably due to lack of sleep. These hypnosis sessions were a true aid in those times https://sleephypnopill.com/. Might be of use for someone.
                              "Guest" was me, and I thank you for your post. Hopefully, it will be referenced when the next promoter of MSM shows up, as they inevitably will do.

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