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  • Spirituality

    I was a catholic youth and have always believed in some kind of God and spiritual world. I've been influenced by Christianity, but can't believe in it anymore. I need to believe in something though. When I was a church goer, I felt involved with a heavenly body. I still need that but it's changed since I've accepted that that circumcision is ridiculous and wrong. I'm critical with all aspects of the Church and scripture now. And so much of it is wrong. Very wrong. I know why people cling to it though. That deep identity is very powerful. And fear can be strong motivator, even if its wrong in itself. Quacks like Dr Kellogg help spearhead the anti pleasure, anti sex movement and "legitmized" an evil surgery in the eyes of too much of the medical community; and he gained acceptance with the help of reference to scripture. Let's be real here. Judeo Christian puritanistic attitudes have caused a lot of suffering, and kept real knowledge from people in the US. Even the medical establishment has been bullied and kept ignorant at times. I hope I'm not rambling. I'm just pissed off.
    Can anyone else relate to this anger towards the church, the bible, puritanism etc.? It's like godly sanctioned cruelty that people just accept sometimes. I still need a form of spirituality, but Judeo Christian thought sometimes seems like mutilation to an extent. We all have felt physical genital mutilation. What about spiritual mutilation.

  • #2
    I like this video for Abrahamic people who are questioning their take on life's unknowables:

    https://youtu.be/lWZifSXlzlI
    It points out that the universe is unimaginably vast in space, and time has passed for like 14 billion incomprehensible years. This makes the notion of THE god of the entire universe choosing a tiny fraction of this tiny rock in this tiny region of the Milky Way in the vast universe, and choosing a few conspicuously poorly-recorded centuries in which to transmit all of His official communiques quite absurd.
    -Ron Low
    [email protected]
    847 414-1692 Chicago

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    • #3
      Saying it's good to believe in something is not the same as saying we need religion.

      I think the term spiritual simply means someone who yearns to know a purpose for living.

      I feel like I'm imbued by evolution with the urge to leave the world a better, more peaceful and habitable place than I found it. I think this happened just by luck, but it must have happened, because if humans didn't inherently behave to quell that urge we would have screwed up the planet far worse than it already is since we've had thousands and thousands of years in which to do so.

      Further, I sense that not just my family, but indeed all humans and OK all mammals have enough DNA in common with me such that I can't help but do everything in my power to see to the fitness of this earth for all future generations.

      There are millions of ways someone could choose to act if motivated by the above concept. Some might chain themselves to giant redwoods while others might bomb abortion clinics. I choose to work for the end of forced genital cutting and the end of mythical thinking.
      -Ron Low
      [email protected]
      847 414-1692 Chicago

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      • #4
        Thank you Ron... The video was really good... You are an amazing human being

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        • #5
          When you discover that your religious leaders have been lying and deceiving you, whether they knew it themselves or not, you have every right to be angry. Be thankful you have seen through the deceit and can begin to heal. Billions are still held in the thrall of religion. Transitioning out of the religious delusion can be quite difficult for some people. Luckily there is now of support via the internet. Try: http://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/resources/ This site leads to secular therapists and support groups. They do not push any particular dogma, unlike Christian therapists who want you to pray to an ancient thunder and war god (Yahweh) and his supposed demi-god son and mother for help. If you like discussing the numerous shortcomings of religious dogma there are several atheist podcasts (check out itunes) and the Atheist Experience video show, some of which run by ex-believers. If you want to get even more upset and infuriated read Darrel Ray's excellent book 'Sex and God'. You will not believe how much religion has f--ked up our normal biological sexuality. Life is a journey and there are a few bumps on the road. Best wishes.

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          • #6
            I used to think the same way as you, that all religion must be banned to prevent religious leaders the power to easily justify acts of inhumanity, yet there are some things I must point out.

            The original practice, milah, was abbreviated to only the removal of the tip of the foreskin. The decision to snip beyond the tip lay in the cultural collision between Greco-Roman and Jewish cultures. While the Jews considered circumcision among matters theistic, the Greeks regarded it as an aesthetic faux pas. As Hellenic culture became the fashion throughout the Roman Empire, Jews seeking to avoid discrimination and compete in Roman games sought to emulate their hosts by stretching the foreskin and tying it closed. However, Jewish Elders, rather unsympathetic to the “when in Rome” justification of the blasphemous procedure, instated the Brit Peri’ah around 140 AD. With this, the circumcision procedure now included removing the foreskin to beyond the ridge of the glans, ensuring all Jews would be fully shorn of Roman identity and biologically incapable of experiencing sexual pleasure.When Jesus died on the cross He abolished every barrier between man and God and between man and his fellow man. The greatest barrier between Jew and Gentile was the genital mutilation (what grown man would allow himself to be tortured and crippled sexually?).

            In
            Eph. 2:14-15, Paul is speaking about how the Gentiles, who were called the uncircumcision (v. 11), were separated from Christ (v. 12) but have now been brought near (to God) by the blood of Christ (v. 13). Jesus removed the requirement of having to follow the Law in order to please God, established justification by faith, and thereby united both Jew and Gentile into one group in Christ. AKA, Jesus abolished circumcision.
            When christian religious leaders push genital mutilation they seek to fulfill an agenda that does not represent the will of God.


            Good news : This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. But every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. 1 John 4:2-3
            Another important factor to consider is that Jesus IS the messiah, that is a fact and if you pay attention to all the prophecies of the old testament you would know this (here is a link to help explain what I am talking about): http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org/prophecy/353prophecies.html
            The religion of Islam, more than any other religion, philosophy, or belief system, fulfills the description of the antichrist spirit. The religion of Islam makes it one of its highest priorities to very specifically deny all of the above points regarding Jesus and His relationship to the Father. (source: http://www.answering-islam.org/Autho...t_of_islam.htm).

            Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillment of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus. Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging, of all false messiahs.

            What this means is that all practitioners of the two main genital mutilating religions Judaism and Islam will go to HELL according to true Christian dogma.

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            • #7
              If you believe that milah just cuts off the tip (as is believed even by scholars like Glick), then how do you explain that doing this would result in a sclerotic and therefore tight opening as a result of healing that would prevent retraction. No one can explain this—unless the part cut off was extremely small. That is the reason medical circumcision removed the foreskin back to the sulcus, to prevent medically induced phimosis or paraphimosis. Other cultures all seem to pull the foreskin forward before chopping it off. I would like to hear your explanation.

              Although I do not follow your religion, I do know a considerable amount about its origins and its weaknesses. I want to believe as much that is true as possible and Christianity does not come near to being true. Why believe in a war and thunder god promoted by priests who had a vested interest? Paul, who never met Jesus (and even Jesus' existence as he appears in the synoptics is now being disputed) tried to soften the good news to get gentiles into his flock in contrast to the Jerusalem Christian faction who struck to their Jewish traditions and rites. Research has revealed that Moses (and Noah etc etc) never actually existed, but is a construct of several characters/gods from the area. Strangely Jesus was not aware of this. Quoting biblical texts does not work, because I am aware of how the texts were constructed from various sources (including reruns of OT stories, Greek and Buddhist sources etc) and, disregarding the factual errors, are more allegory than history. (Mark, the original gospel, is cleverly constructed as a sophisticated allegory.) The prophecies in the NT are just reruns of the OT stories; some in the OT failed or were written after the actual event occurred (e.g. Daniel). Prophecies must have an actual date and real place, plus actual names to be valid predictions. Atheists are very aware that biblical prophecies fail to meet such requirements.

              If your beliefs can allow you to explore deeper, I suggest you try some biblical criticism studies. Robert Price's podcasts "The Bible Geek" are very good, but rather heavy going at times (he has a double PhD). Criticism tries to get tot he truth—the opposite to apologetics which tires to harmonize difficulties. Price has a good sense of humor, but I suggest you begin at episode 1. He also did some called "The Human Bible" which are a bit simpler to start with. Richard Carrier's work is interesting, though not always easy. (Carrier started believing, but after researching is now an atheist.) They both have Youtube videos. All beliefs need to be tested rigorously to see if they stand up to scrutiny. Yours (or mine) is no exception. So far I have found no religion that comes even close to being true. It helps to know something about what science has revealed and how the human brain works in its search for "paternicity" and "agenticity". Michael Shirmer covers these in some of his books. We see patterns where none exist; we see agents behind events which are just random happenings. Not at all as reassuring and comforting as a god belief.

              Best wishes
              P.

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              • #8
                I've always questioned do I belive in God or not? Until I learned of Male Mutilation (circumcision) and how important the foreskin is I didn't really think of it much. But now that I am informed of the importance of the foreskin, I can't really think God would make a baby perfect with everything he needs in this world, then say hey I made a mistake, he may get too many UTI's now I'm going to tell them to cut it off.

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                • #9
                  You are making a basic assumption that a god actually exists. Why? The Bible is not evidence that would stand up either legally or scientifically. It is merely hearsay (i.e.stories that cannot be verified). When I tell Mormons this they are speechless and suddenly I hold the take ground and start teaching them about reality as opposed to myth. If you have real evidence that your religion is true, there is a one million $ prize awaiting you. No one has claimed it yet. I wonder why. I have DNA evidence (from two different company's analysis) that my ancestors came from Africa which disproves the creation account in a single stroke. Religion is for the gullible.

                  As I understand it, the priests introduced circumcision to the Hebrew ruling classes during their exile in Babylon and inserted it into various books of the Torah to give themselves more power. While in Babylon they also modified their religion to only one ruling god (instead of many) and introduced the idea of an opposing bad god Satan (called Ahriman in the Babylon Zoroastrian religion). Before that the Satan was more like war god Yahweh's manager or hit man.

                  If you like intellectual research you may like to check out the documentary hypothesis. This explains how the early books in the OT were constructed. It also explains why there are two versions of many myths. Here is a good place to start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg I disagree with some details e.g. archeological evidence is that war god Yahweh's wife was Asherah. El Elyon was the father of about 70 gods including Yahweh (it is in Psalms somewhere).

                  There are no gods. Some men get power over others by telling lies. Originally circumcision in Judaism was to dedicate the son to the god and thereby come under the power of the priests. Circumcision is all about POWER.

                  Best wishes
                  P.

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                  • #10
                    I belive in letting nature take it's course, whatever that may be!

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                    • #11
                      A reminder. For those who would like to discuss the precepts of a specific faith, we have a Safe Haven section wherein the supposition of the thread's originating poster will not be disrespected.
                      -Ron Low
                      [email protected]
                      847 414-1692 Chicago

                      Comment

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