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  • #16
    I have a memory of my grandmother bathing me. I remember feeling very ashamed and afraid. I remember expressing that " they" , meaning my caretakers whom she was a part of had hurt me. It was an extremely powerful, yet foggy experience... It's only now, with my new awareness that I can say honestly, that the area where the pain I " remember" was coming from was my genitals. You can cut it up if you wish; but I really have nothing to gain from sharing this. It's not even a crystal clear recollection, but clear enough to know it was real. The major thing was distrust, and a twisted experience of being naked. How anyone can discount this is absurd. If I were a grown woman expressing the aftershock of a sexual assault where my genitals were cut up with a sharp instrument, no one would question the validity or severity of my pain. But because this happened as an infant when my awareness wasn't "fully" mattured. Oh ya, that makes it less of an assault or trauma... I honestly feel like the detrimental psychological effects of infant circumcision can still genuinely plague the psychology of adults even when they think they've moved on. It's your choice... My choice is mine... I choose to wipe this slate clean without any denial... I know my self esteem, my trust, and my reasoning was affected from an agressive unnecessary surgery on my genitals... Part of my physical connection with the universe was altered for ignorant and evil purpose... Shhhhhhhhh... I believe if the search is deep enough others will feel the same. We're not here by accident

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    • #17
      I have to express that I feel infant cir

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      • #18
        Sorry, I'm using my phone and it doesn't respond like I want it to ,often. Infant circumcision is obviously cruel. And it is debatable as to how damaging it truly is psychologically​... Kind of... Just like, you could say , get over it. The guy who beat your ass for no reason, made you fear for your life because you were at the wrong place at the wrong time, made you fearful and anxious every time you left your house after the beating... Yet your subconscious still hung onto the intense vulnerability and powerlessness you felt during the experience. Maybe, after some time you learned to deal with the feelings. You reasoned in your mind about numerous scenarios to fit even partially as to why you experienced​ this.... And you felt, fuck it... This is life... No promises to anyone... So you moved on... You became part of the motion that hurt you in the first place. You recognized it, but didn't have the courage to fight it. You accepted your "fate"... Dealing with something evil isn't the same as fighting it...

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        • #19
          First off... I know I'm out of my league intellectually​ and articulatively with some of you. But I don't give a f$#k. How can you constantly give so much credit to " this study" or "that study" as if to say these studies are the end all be all of authority on what is. People speaking and your own soul should guide you ,without so much reference to what some study said at a certain place in time. Attitudes can affect any study...... What I do know is this, without any outside influence... After my Dad spanked me hard for the first time, I never forgot it... I was scared of my father... I trembled when I knew I had stepped out of line and realized I would be caught... And my fear was a spanking... So, if I had a vague subconscious memory of my dick being cut up; being strapped to a circumcision board, being led there by my parents... Being subjected to quite possibly the most excruciating physical pain I've ever truly known... I would like someone to explain to me how this experience is dismissably benign in my consciousness however deep it may lay...

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Opto-mystic View Post
            If I were a grown woman expressing the aftershock of a sexual assault where my genitals were cut up with a sharp instrument, no one would question the validity or severity of my pain.
            Female genital mutilation is a far more traumatic experience than male circumcision (genital mutilation), hence why it is illegal in pretty much any civilized place. I get where you're coming from with this statement, but it's really not the same. Arguing against something by pointing at a different topic rarely works, focus on explaining why foreskin removal is bad.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Opto-mystic View Post
              First off... I know I'm out of my league intellectually​ and articulatively with some of you. But I don't give a f$#k. How can you constantly give so much credit to " this study" or "that study" as if to say these studies are the end all be all of authority on what is. People speaking and your own soul should guide you ,without so much reference to what some study said at a certain place in time. Attitudes can affect any study...... What I do know is this, without any outside influence... After my Dad spanked me hard for the first time, I never forgot it... I was scared of my father... I trembled when I knew I had stepped out of line and realized I would be caught... And my fear was a spanking... So, if I had a vague subconscious memory of my dick being cut up; being strapped to a circumcision board, being led there by my parents... Being subjected to quite possibly the most excruciating physical pain I've ever truly known... I would like someone to explain to me how this experience is dismissably benign in my consciousness however deep it may lay...


              Hahaha, you made me laugh with your nonchalant attitude.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Opto-mystic View Post
                I've just begun to consider how circumcision may have affected my behavior growing up. Specifically with regard to impulsivity and aggression. Some how, intuitively, I feel like I want to say yes! The " tooth grinding", anxious, and aggressive child I was, definitely had roots in the blow to my trust of the world as an infant... And because we are all different. Maybe some guys become the opposite of aggressive... Overly passive and fearful... I'm not saying I know for sure, but have any of you had similar thoughts?

                Blessings



                I definitely concur, because I experience fear, random anger, and very impulsive behavior.


                I FOUND a few links which address what you said. I am still looking for the last one! I hope you like them!


                https://www.doctorsopposingcircumcis...ogical-impact/


                http://www.iaim.net/extreme-trauma-f...reas-of-brain/

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                • #23
                  Thank you for the links Pohpohlipoh... And I'm glad I made you laugh. I'm actually a little embarrassed by some of my posts. I honestly had a few too many beers when I wrote them. The passion was there but my expressions were a bit sloppy. Blessings

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Opto-mystic View Post
                    REPLY

                    I definitely can relate, anytime!

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                    • #25
                      My circumcision at 3 months old had huge psychological effects on me and my self-esteem (manliness self-worth, body security, and hatred of penis). Discovering foreskin restoration started about 1 month ago after I was going through the Self-Esteem Workbook by Glenn R. Schiraldi with my counseller. Part of the workbook includes appreciating your body and identifying things that are right about it. Also dealing with any past hatred one has for any body parts. I realized from doing the exercise that I hated my penis and this lead me to start researching about the foreskin. Other events in my childhood also added to the low self-esteem and self-hatred but I think the helplessness of being strapped down to a board (this was back in 1983) and having the most sensitive part of my body cut off without anesthetic causing excruciating pain was nothing less than abuse and torture that my body subconsciously remembers even if I can't verbally express it. I asked my parents why they did it and found out my mother didn't want it done but my Dad did because he was circumcised and it was the cultural thing to do at the time.
                      Symptoms I've found regarding being circumcised I identify with include:
                      low self-esteem,
                      shame about not “measuring up”,
                      anger and violence toward women,
                      difficulties in establishing intimate relationships emotional numbing,
                      decreased ability to communicate,
                      feelings of not being understood,

                      I ordered a TLC Tugger and started using it on March 2, 2018 and am happy with the results so far.

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                      • #26
                        Yes they don't put that in the infant circ broucher. We have a sick society from religion to so called doctors of harm.

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                        • #27
                          Opto-Mystic - I am with you, I believe our we have unconscious memories of our mutilations. I love science and debate, and have been told I'm very articulate, and yet I know I don't have much to bring the area of add solid objective evidence of such phenomenona. It's very frustrating.

                          I've known circumcised men with whom I've been very close who behaved in ways which suggested severe childhood abuse despite the absence of such history from the hands of people who raised them. I have always had a terror that someone would snatch me up in my sleep and maim and/or kill me. I believe this might be due to my mutilation, though obviously I can only speculate. It is known in psychology that even in the womb infants are susceptible to trauma with long term consequences.

                          People who mutilate and/or are mutilated often squelch such speculation in this arena due to cognitive dissonance and a general fears in involving the recognition of the damage wrought, whether upon their bodies or the bodies of others via their direct actions and/or complicity.

                          mattsprofile - About which form of female genital mutilation do ypu speak? Infibulation, wherein females have a massive amount of genital tissue removed and the new opening hence sown shut accounts for a minority of genitally mutilated females globally. That form of FGM seems ro be limited to some cultures in Western Africa.

                          The most common form of FGM, which is practiced routinely on female neonates in Egypt in hospitals, as well as other areas, generally by Muslim families, is considerably less damaging than brit periah, which is a more aggressive form of the original form of male genital mutilation performed first by Egyptian pharaohs and then adopted by Jews. Brit milah, aka Pharaonic circumcision removes only the tio of the foreskin, though one must that said tip contains the most erogenous parts of the penis - the rigded band. Brit periah, which Jewish law mandated later when it was discovered that some Jewish men could pretend to he intact to compete in the Olympics or simply pass as non-Jewish in ancient Greece, is essentially what we practice routinely in the US by so-called medical professionals at the behest of bogus claims of hygienic benefits; rhis form of mutilation involves the utter removal of sll outer foreskin and anywhete from some to most of the inner foreskin depending on method, intent, and chance.

                          The type of FGM performed by modern Egyptians involves removal of only the clitoral hood, and is therefore probably less negatively impactful for the majority of individuals effected than even the least damaging common form of routine male genital mutilation.

                          There is no one standardized form of FGM, nor of MGM, practiced universally amongst those who mutilate genitalia.

                          I'm surprised to see a member of this board speak of the comparison of male snd female henital mutilations in a manner similar to that often spouted by those who oppose intactivists by shaming us for making a reasonable and frankly obviously valid comparison.

                          Most Americans vehemently oppose all form of female genital mutilation while advocating that of males as innocuous. This sort of thinking cannot be encouraged within an environment which ostensibly seeks to promote the elimination of non-consensual genital alteration, for the sake of the perceived human right to bodily integrity of both males and females within a given human society.

                          I do agree, however, that due to ignorance and bias this comparison is best avoided when debating this topic in most cultures.
                          Last edited by WoundedBird; 03-15-2019, 02:41 AM. Reason: Clarification of pointa. Sorry for the verbosity, this is difficult from a smartphone!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by WoundedBird View Post
                            I'm surprised to see a member of this board speak of the comparison of male snd female henital mutilations in a manner similar to that often spouted by those who oppose intactivists by shaming us for making a reasonable and frankly obviously valid comparison.
                            I don't necessarily agree with everything that every "intactivist" stands for. I agree that routine infant circumcision is a practice which should not exist, but that doesn't mean I'm going to agree with everything else that people on this forum will say.

                            There are a lot of people out there who reside in communities that place such high value "acceptance" and "support" that any dissenting action is immediately shunned. These communities turn into echo chambers where the members lose sight of reality. If you've ever looked at a person and thought "how did they go far off track" it's because for every person who questioned them there were 50 people who said to not listen. The only 50 people in the world they probably shouldn't be taking advice from. And that's not what I want the foreskin restoration community to be. I don't want people to show up and say, "all these people are nuts, they're just a cult who mindlessly agrees with everything the leader says."

                            It's not like I'm running around terrorizing people. I don't call people idiots for having certain opinions and I generally don't tell people that their statements are objectively wrong unless I am absolutely positive about it. I am just a normal person who has his own opinions and viewpoints who happens to be actively restoring his foreskin and thus participating in foreskin restoration discussion. There is no reason that every person here should be on the same page when it comes to every foreskin related topic.

                            edit: Oh, and I didn't shame anyone. I just said that I don't thing a large focus should be placed on comparison between FGM and MGM. If you're ashamed by that opinion then that's not my fault.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by mattsprofile View Post

                              edit: Oh, and I didn't shame anyone. I just said that I don't thing a large focus should be placed on comparison between FGM and MGM. If you're ashamed by that opinion then that's not my fault.
                              I think focusing on the comparison works sometimes and not others. It vary much depends on who you are talking to. For some people a simple anatomical explanation is the smoking gun that provides all the information they need to realize circumcision is harmful. Other people don't care about the anatomy at all and put all the weight of the decision on social acceptance. Still others only see the damage when they realize the double standard they have in their mind between FGM and MGM. It really all depends on the specific conversation. To say we shouldn't compare them leaves an entire area of debate out of the equation.


                              Originally posted by mattsprofile View Post
                              Female genital mutilation is a far more traumatic experience than male circumcision (genital mutilation), hence why it is illegal in pretty much any civilized place.
                              In this statement you are already making your own comparison with preconceived notions that FGM is far more traumatic than MGM. In reality, every situation is different. There are more severe forms of MGM and there are far less severe forms of FGM. Making a blanket statement that FGM is far more traumatic is exactly the conclusion people come to when trying to explain why circumcision is acceptable and FGM is not acceptable. Based on the facts that I am aware of, most FGM is actually less invasive than the standard American RIC, and I don't mean to discredit the experience of any female who had a more extreme form of FGM. The sheer number of incidents of MGM in our society seems to vastly outweigh (by the numbers) cases of FGM. If you cut off the top third of 9 boys pinky fingers is it equal to cutting off the entire pinky finger of 3 girls? They aren't exactly equal, but they are definitely comparable. If we can succeed at changing the mind of the country to realize how comparable these surgeries actually are, it becomes an extremely important argument against MGM. Let's not assume FGM is more traumatic because no one can go through both experiences and compare them. Both are genital mutilation, both are violations of consent, both are harmful to the individual physically, emotionally, and psychologically.

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