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I think we should stop calling ourselves victims

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  • #61
    I don't have any desire to fight with anyone. Some people identify as victims, others don't. I feel I was victimized but I don't feel it defines me as a person. A woman who was raped, if she was unconscious when it happened, does that mean she is not a victim? Obviously she is. But wearing victim-hood as a badge of personal identity is another matter, and I agree that that isn't for the best for one's emotional health.

    "Info": Inflection is difficult to read over the internet, and if I misread your intentions or affect then I am sorry. I think what offended me a bit was seeing people come onto the grief section of the forum to, in my estimation, essentially tell people they ought not feel grief. We're all entitled to our feelings and thoughts.

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    • #62
      Sometimes I am guilty of overreacting to things, I'm genuinely sorry if I was rude or offensive, as I really like to think we're all "brothers" here. Hopefully we can render this conversation somehow productive or just let it die?

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      • #63
        The objectivity behind "circumcised" (victim of genital mutilation) and "not circumcised" (natural) remains a firm boundary between rationality and subjective denial.
        Started CI-0 with no movable skin and 0% FEC

        Currently at CI-4 with 64% FEC

        See my progress gallery

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        • #64
          Yes, Gdom, you're absolutely right. I have a lot of drama going on in my life lately, and I started to question my own perception and judgement regarding my posts in this thread...but after stepping away and talking about it with my partner, I don't think I said anything wrong here. Matt literally said that he was choosing to be in denial and then gone upset with me for pointing it out.

          What is going on exactly here? This is some twisted psychological textual warfare, it seems. If someone doesn't want to grieve or be exposed to others grief, then stay off the grief forum.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by WoundedBird View Post
            Yes, Gdom, you're absolutely right. I have a lot of drama going on in my life lately, and I started to question my own perception and judgement regarding my posts in this thread...but after stepping away and talking about it with my partner, I don't think I said anything wrong here. Matt literally said that he was choosing to be in denial and then gone upset with me for pointing it out.

            What is going on exactly here? This is some twisted psychological textual warfare, it seems. If someone doesn't want to grieve or be exposed to others grief, then stay off the grief forum.
            I agree with your posts actually. We must not become victims in the sense that we become weak, but to deny the harm that was done seems wrong and is objectively false.

            KOT everyone. It's a fucked up world that we even need to argue about this. How this ever became something that one would do to their own child is far beyond me.
            Started CI-0 with no movable skin and 0% FEC

            Currently at CI-4 with 64% FEC

            See my progress gallery

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            • #66
              I agree with your posts too, gdom. I thought it rather apparent that we are simpatico.

              It is indeed insane that we even have to discuss this issue. I am into psychology and have studied it academically as well as recreationally, but I still don't fully understand why humans feel the need to mutilate the genitals of children. It definitely has something to do with controlling sexuality, which is seen as threatening to many. It's just so bizarre, though.

              I will never experience the full intensity of sexual pleasure evolution intended. I am glad I didn't die or face accidental total amputation of my penis...I'm glad I have a bit of ridged mucosa remaining...but I shouldn't have had anything cut off of me. Infants feel pain and implicit memory exists. There is a neuronal map in the brain which must be disrupted when so much erogenous tissue is removed. I don't lament the loss of the parts of my penis which were taken from me as much as I used to - and certainly there is no clear delineation of what is "foreskin", and men vary greatly in what they lose - but I will never feel completely whole or comfortable with what was done to me.

              By the way, after reflection and digestion of this discussion, I regret being sarcastic toward Matt, though I still stand by my statement that his post is obviously expressing willful, chosen denial. That is not mud-slinging, it simply is. But I don't think being sarcastic was appropriate of me and I am sorry for being inflammatory.

              I don't need to be told what a therapist might tell me. Therapists are not the sole arbiters of mental health knowledge in the world. I think it was condescending to say such a thing to me. But I really have no desire to descend into a flame war with anyone. I hope this thread can get back on track. By the way, I did not get "dinged" from a group, lol. I was the one who was trying to start the group. I refused to start the group with a man who insisted that we create a rule that men involved must be censored from sharing their grief during meetings. If we can't vent to one another, to whom can we vent? I was the one who was trying to create the group - Ron Lowe hooked me up with that guy when I expressed my desire to create a group. If anything, I "dinged" him.

              I realize many men are ashamed to express grief, to express pain over their mutilations. Others perhaps simply don't feel any grief/pain. But the former seem to often go around insulting we men who are not ashamed to share our grief and sadness. It is a cultural reality that men are taught to hide our pain. I refuse to be a part of the crowd who would try to silence those who hurt. I have had many men, mostly young ones, message me to discuss their pain, and I feel honored to be able to give them an ear. I always suggest they throw their energy into restoration, and, if they are so inclined, intactivism. I don't encourage anyone to wallow in pain or give up on life.

              So far it seems that many of us agree that A. We are victims of genital mutilation as the objective definition fits - and B. We needn't be defined by our mutilation, and to do so is not healthy.

              I think sharing our stories is actually beneficial to Intactivism. People need to know why we want to put an end to this practice. My focus is indeed on ending this practice so future generations can be spared this barbaric absurdity.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by WoundedBird View Post
                ......

                I think sharing our stories is actually beneficial to Intactivism. People need to know why we want to put an end to this practice. My focus is indeed on ending this practice so future generations can be spared this barbaric absurdity.
                RIC is done in the area of health care, at, or soon after birth. As I've already said, parents won't want you anywhere near their situation. Providers won't want you anywhere near their practice. Facilities won't want you anywhere near their campus. What you are talking about is a fantasy, simply a fantasy. Why?

                Aside from the obvious (and it is obvious), you aren't actually addressing what is lost due to circumcision. None of you have. Is anyone here aware enough to notice that? You aren't professionals. RIC happens in the professional realm. All you can do is tell them a "story" of grief, which will perhaps devolve into anger. In no way is this needed from an effective intactivist.

                If you actually understood the dynamics of RIC, you would realize this is true. It's part of an almost mindless system. RIC itself is based in a vague rationale, which is one of its weaknesses. Anyone interested in actually having a real effect on the practice has to come at it from that rationale, or in other words, from the physiological issues, and, here's something none of you victim types would ever know, also from the direction of cost analysis, depending on who you're standing in front of.

                Anything else is a fantasy, talk, just talk, and here it's just posturing, not even debate; ineffective in the real world, because it has nothing to do with the real world. I don't expect forum warriors with a personal agenda to understand this. You haven't lived in that world; you're too busy in yours. I have lived in it. Doesn't make me a genius, or one of the minor gods, but it does make me aware of the issues, from the OB and Peds back office, to the L&D floor, and on to the insurance carrier's perspective, and saying that your "focus is indeed on ending this practice" is meaningless beyond the saying of it; it falls short, especially if you present yourself as an ongoing "victim", which you have done here. That's your real focus and you've demonstrated that.

                This is why you "victims" can be a bit irritating when you try to stand next to intactivism, especially in words only. What you present is small, contracted, "me" only. Nobody believes your altruism or "focus", not even here on the forum. Jeeze

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                • #68
                  And I think I'm finished with this thread. Everybody's side has been represented, the issues both false and real have been touched on. So, thanks to all, especially to those few who represent their view in a personal and honest way. I think this has been one of the better threads on this forum.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by WoundedBird View Post
                    I refuse to be a part of the crowd who would try to silence those who hurt. ... I don't encourage anyone to wallow in pain or give up on life.

                    ... People need to know why we want to put an end to this practice.
                    There it is. The most intelligent thing I'll read all day.
                    Started CI-0 with no movable skin and 0% FEC

                    Currently at CI-4 with 64% FEC

                    See my progress gallery

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