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  • #metoo #timesup #whyididn'treport

    Hi everyone I just wanted to share a thought. We are living in the #metoo movement era. I believe this is very good thing for our culture. I imagine most of us here are very aware that we are living in a rape culture. I watch the news a lot and for the last few years its been hard watching all the allegations come out.

    Anyway I just wanted to throw the idea out there hoping maybe to get the circumcised involved in the #metoo movement. The time really seems ripe. If this topic has already been brought up on some other post, oh well its worth repeating. I believe there is a connection between circumcision and our current rape culture today. At the very least I hope this post plants a seed that will grow into something.

    I understand that everyone is very opinionated, including myself. If you disagree thats fine, but keep it to yourself. If you only want to bring negativity to this post then please refrain. For anyone else who would like to see this issue finally be addressed. Please be brave and continue to speak out. If we want to rid America of circumcision we can't continue to be silent. We have been raped and mutilated. Most of us before we could fight back. Its no wonder rape is normal in this culture of ours. We have been taught rape at birth...

    The Industry tries to justifiy their actions in many ways. Please remember you don't need a Ph.D to know you have been sexually assaulted. So don't let anyone tell you that circumcision isn't an issue.

  • #2
    Originally posted by RTMHtom View Post
    Hi everyone I just wanted to share a thought. We are living in the #metoo movement era. I believe this is very good thing for our culture. I imagine most of us here are very aware that we are living in a rape culture. I watch the news a lot and for the last few years its been hard watching all the allegations come out.

    Anyway I just wanted to throw the idea out there hoping maybe to get the circumcised involved in the #metoo movement. The time really seems ripe. If this topic has already been brought up on some other post, oh well its worth repeating. I believe there is a connection between circumcision and our current rape culture today. At the very least I hope this post plants a seed that will grow into something.

    I understand that everyone is very opinionated, including myself. If you disagree thats fine, but keep it to yourself. If you only want to bring negativity to this post then please refrain. For anyone else who would like to see this issue finally be addressed. Please be brave and continue to speak out. If we want to rid America of circumcision we can't continue to be silent. We have been raped and mutilated. Most of us before we could fight back. Its no wonder rape is normal in this culture of ours. We have been taught rape at birth...

    The Industry tries to justifiy their actions in many ways. Please remember you don't need a Ph.D to know you have been sexually assaulted. So don't let anyone tell you that circumcision isn't an issue.
    I think the main involvement we all already have with the #MeToo movement is that we are victims of sexual violence. Our rights were disregarded out of ignorance regarding the value of normal intact genitals, and it STILL goes on.
    -Ron Low
    Service@TLCTugger.com
    847 414-1692 Chicago

    Comment


    • #3


      The OP can only complain for the owner's intercession. Perhaps he did. Me? I don't complain to someone else, on my own behalf. I not only know the definition of bravery, I try to live it. But the fact is, it ain't my site. I am a member, though and I will never respect a dishonest request, by an OP, for a one-sided thread. So my original post addressed that. One of the admins asked for a rewrite. That's fair; changes it from the censorship the OP wants, to an editorial situation.

      So:

      "Sexual" violence? I object to that term. Here's why:

      Unless someone can prove that an act of circumcision had a sexual connotation for the performer, either along with, or despite, any clinical worth it had, then your argument fails. You have to prove an actual "sexual" meaning, as part of the motivation of a specific individual, using that definition, in a legal arena, which is what throwing terms around actually takes in a court of law. Otherwise, this concept is just hyperbole, totally ineffective in any movement towards curtailing RIC.

      As for the OP's opinion that US culture is "rape culture", unless he has sociological study proving that, he's operating from his opinion, and his opinion is offensive. The US is many things, but a "rape culture"? I ask the OP: please don't use that term here. Whatever personal angst causes you to consider this in your own mind, it's your angst, not ours.

      However, if someone wants to use the "bravery" word like the newbie misused, then by all means, step up, bring a legal suit, be actually brave, accuse some professional of "sexual violence". And then see where using that concept gets you. You'll have to prove it, using established criteria. And then, you'll have to marry that with the abrasive concept of "rape culture", assuming you are foolish enough to use that argument.

      At the least, a reference to circumcision as "sexual" violence, will get a lecture from the judge for confusing "sexual" with anything to do with the penis. Then you'll get called out for trying to dishonestly ride on the coattails of a separate movement (MeToo), while characterizing an entire culture (American culture) as negatively as was done here. And I would imagine, you would be called out for negatively characterizing the males in that culture.

      The OP needs to realize that masked anger, which is my take on his post, is just more socmed posturing, it's negative, and what's more it isn't even honest negativity. That makes it a double offense. Of course, that's the hallmark of a general social dishonesty which we've all come to expect on the internet, especially on restoration sites. So I have to ask, why get in the way of the Intactivist movement by allowing this stuff in this section? This is an Intactivist section, after all.

      The internet lives in an uninformed fantasy world, which is why even the sincere internet intactivists will have difficulty finding credibility. It's this kind of ... stuff ... which casts a shadow on any internet discourse. Of course the movement needs all the help it can get, on the internet as well, but not this stuff, from this kind of dishonesty.

      So here's my second objection. In the name of a "call to action", the OP is appealing only to the base instincts of the generally angry. What else was it an appeal to? That's a serious question.

      Why not, as part of the "rewrite", consider redirecting the OP's post to the Grief section, or Le Bistro? Otherwise, just what was the "call to action" involved here? Torches and pitchforks? Or the usual socmed chatter. I think most members here can answer that question.
      Last edited by Reality; 09-27-2018, 06:04 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Reality View Post
        You have to prove an actual "sexual" meaning, as part of the motivation of a specific individual, using that definition
        Suppose you tied your daughter (or a patient) down and sliced off her labia because you believed she would be more attractive to potential heterosexual mates one day. Could that ever be called sexual violence?
        -Ron Low
        Service@TLCTugger.com
        847 414-1692 Chicago

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Reality View Post
          You have to prove an actual "sexual" meaning, as part of the motivation of a specific individual, using that definition
          If I slid the blunt metal handle of a butter knife into your daughter's vagina, would that be sexual violence even if I "only" thought I was casting a spell to protect her during childbirth decades hence?

          Infant circumcision begins with the insertion of a blunt metal probe into a tightly closed sexual orifice of a healthy normal person to break the synechial bonds. Just that act - even if no cutting ensued - would alter the victim's sexual experience dramatically forever.
          -Ron Low
          Service@TLCTugger.com
          847 414-1692 Chicago

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't think that infant female genital mutilation was banned due to it being "sexual violence," I think it was banned because it was a painful and unnecessary surgical procedure with negative effects, both physical and psychological.

            I would argue that the male infant counterpart is the same, and that neither is "sexual violence." It's just a really bad surgical procedure that happens to be performed on the patient's sexual organs.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by admin View Post
              If I slid the blunt metal handle of a butter knife into your daughter's vagina, would that be sexual violence even if I "only" thought I was casting a spell to protect her during childbirth decades hence?

              Infant circumcision begins with the insertion of a blunt metal probe into a tightly closed sexual orifice of a healthy normal person to break the synechial bonds. Just that act - even if no cutting ensued - would alter the victim's sexual experience dramatically forever.
              1. If you did to my daughter I'd put two in your hat;

              2. If you were caught doing it by someone else, then on a complaint it would be taken to a Court of law for a determination as to what it would be considered legally, because it would seem to be questionable and unsafe. IF THERE WAS A SUSPICION OF "SEXUAL VIOLENCE" THEN IT WOULD BE BROUGHT TO TRIAL using established legal criteria. Here's the issue you don't seem to understand: the situation is not the slam dunk you think it is. A prosecutor would have to prove it was "sexual violence". There has to be an element of provable sexual connotation, and an element of provable violence. The perpetrator would have to prove that it wasn't sexual, and that is an allowable stance; he has the right to do that. That's how the law works. It doesn't operate on some guy's opinion. (my .40 does, but that ain't Law).

              3. Let's say it differently: your problem seems to be that you think you and your opinion are the determination of "sexual violence". You sound so sure. And you seem to think that we all agree. We may, but that has nothing to do with what constitutes "sexual violence". In the US, you, we, aren't the folks who determine definitions, or outcomes; 12 people who aren't a lynch mob with an angry viewpoint get to, after they've sifted through the presentations.

              The US is a country of laws, generally speaking. Official determinations (and punishment for that matter) are done under the rubric of Law. If I put two in your hat, then I have to come up with a defense. In my opinion I had one, but the Law wants to look at that, for determination.

              4. Your personal opinion can be anything. I don't have to agree with it; no individual, or group, has to agree with it, unless it is already determined by statute or "best practice". As it turns out, male circumcision done medically in general, or clinically when indicated, under "best practice" as it stands currently, IS determined as allowable, if both parents agree and sign a consent. You don't like that. Neither do I. But we don't determine how society, or Medicine, acts with regard to safety. Society does, via Law, AND MEDICINE DOES AS WELL, BASED ON CONTINUING STUDY, AND INTERNAL REVIEW.

              You are presenting these "ideas", which are essentially straw man argument, while avoiding my point. In my opinion this puts you in the same failed stance as the OP. You are operating from emotion, not legality, and not even logic in this case.Your "ideas" have nothing to do with how the term "sexual violence" is determined, anywhere but inside your head. You don't have to like that, but you have to follow it, until there is a clarification of the law.

              And gee, here we are back at the point where all the non professional types ignore the point I've made for years. RIC will change for the better, AND DISAPPEAR, when clinical standards are DEFINED, upgraded, and not supported by a quiet fee schedule. THEN, the outlaws will be prosecuted. Isn't that what you guys want? Or do you only want to be angry? You can be angry, but you have to rise above it, out in the real world. On the internet, anybody can bluster all day, and it means nothing.

              Mattsprofile understands what I've said so far. He sees the issues involved, and he's indicated this in simple, clear terms. Kudos.

              And having said all the preceding, I've lost interest in what is basically a non-issue in the real world arena (until the issues are defined more clearly by the real players), and a tempest in a teapot on the internet, for the reasons already stated.
              Last edited by Reality; 10-02-2018, 08:37 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Reality, I don't think you understand. You sound just like the accused of rape. You have taken so many assumptions, and you are attacking peoples character. Defending something awful that people get away with. But you don't know any of us or clearly much of anything. Are we angry? I haven't met a circumcised man that isn't. Circumcision has changed my life for the worst. You take the assumption that I'm trying to get people hanged. I have forgiven the man who has mutilated me. The devil lurks behind every corner. It wasn't his responsibility to protect me. To forgive and restore is to rise above. But It bothers me that this nation mutilates their sons. Circumcision is indeed rape. Do I have to prove it in court? Maybe one day hopefully. But it starts with our culture that isn't educated or informed on the foreskin. To this culture, the male genitalia is a joke and not as important as the vagina. It's not ok to body shame women but there is no lack of body shaming to men and their genitals on just about every level. So much for equality. News flash the vagina is meaningless without the other. The goal is a world with intact genitals for male, female and don't forget trans people who also face people altering them before they become adults, able to decide for themselves. If you don't know the importance of it then It doesn't seem like loss at all, which is right where the industry wants us. And thats where were at. You said it yourself you don't believe its an issue on the real world stage. Which just shows you don't know how damaging physically and psychologically circumcision really is. Every point you have brought up has been covered in books and links all over the net. By professionals all over the world. The USA is behind on a lot of things including this.


                Here is some good reading for you:

                http://time.com/40110/rape-culture-is-real/

                https://www.amazon.com/dp/0964489538/ref=cm_sw_su_dp

                As far as circumcision not being sexual oh boy do I have some things to share I hope you are ready:

                http://intactwiki.org/wiki/Acorn_Society

                Yes its wiki but there are references at the bottom.

                https://circumcision.org/circumcisio...ers-the-brain/

                These are just a few and theres tons more.

                By the way. What and who are you to this community? Are you a cut man? I hope before you respond again that you check out the links or are you just here to troll and victim shame?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Out of general respect for membership, I will say this:

                  Starting a thread isn't the same as being up to continuing that thread. Trying to stack the cards against discussion didn't help; it indicated you probably feel that your grip on the issues is limited. This can be a fact in some instances, and is a fact in this thread.

                  So here's where you and I are: while it's pleasing that you've risen to enter into a broader discussion now, your last post indicates you simply aren't up to a discussion on anything other than the internet level. Here's why: It's too basic, too general, has a random quality (this is called the "shotgun approach"), and more importantly, it ignores any of the points we've made thus far. Mine are drawn from the real world. In other words, what you've provided doesn't address where this discussion has led. You are off in left field.

                  And, no surprise, you miss the point of discussion, which can always call any method used into question. Apparently you took that personally. This would be the social media ethic. You led with it, and you continue with it. I'm tired of that.

                  You simply don't understand anything of the real-world issues surrounding RIC. Most don't on this site, though, so that isn't all your fault. Some of my understanding comes from having spent time in the clinical area, and in the administrative area where RIC lives. This insight would leave any but the professional, or the informed layman, out of the picture (it doesn't take much for any actual intactivist to get there, though); general members here can't be held accountable for that, and anyhow, their agenda is far from recognizing the real world. But you might imagine, it's become a time waster for me. I'm not interested in misinformed theory, simple minded dogma, and the self-focus and usual little-boy bluster, not to mention the hate; all the hate. So....

                  Have a nice day.
                  Last edited by Reality; 10-03-2018, 04:33 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Long live Judge Kavanaugh!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Reality, I really have no respect for you. I imagine most people in your life don't. No one cares what you have to say. Why? Because instead of just giving out your two cents to help or inform. You have attacked and insulted everyone for feeling they the way they do. And painted a picture that isn't true. Nothing you have said about me is true. But I have to admit you are good at making stuff up. Is this how you fight your battles in life too? Fallaciously? If you don't agree thats fine. You are entitled to feel how you do too. I asked that if you don't agree just ignore this post. You claim to have no interest in the post. So then why are you here lol?! The post was just made to encourage the anti-circumcision community to get involved in the #metoo movement if they haven't already. It appears that it already has and that is good to hear. I'd be more surprised if it wasn't so. Since they have, the post was over at the first reply. But no, you had to come in and make it about you lol. Based on your attacks, you are the only one here; angry and hateful. I don't know why. But whatever the reason. I'm sure if you reached out, even to me, you wouldn't be rejected.

                      By the way its just as I predicted, you obviously didn't look at any of the links that address all the points on hand. The links have info provided by professionals. How is that not real world enough for you lol? The original post was the point of the discussion. You went off on some false narrative that isn't even relevant. In a poor attempt to make the discussion go in your favor. If you want me to see your side try not attacking and insulting the opposition. And be willing to open your mind to another idea, rather than dismissing it, because you're to afraid to admit that there might be more to circumcision than you thought you knew.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RTMHtom View Post
                        Are we angry? I haven't met a circumcised man that isn't.
                        You must not have met very many circumcised men, then. You need to remember that we live in an anti-circumcision echo chamber in this forum. You've only talked about circumcision to men who came here to talk about how they are unhappy with circumcision.

                        I took a class in college about human sexuality. It was a pretty liberal class, we talked about how everybody should have sexual freedoms to do whatever they want. We talked about negative effects of surgery on newborn intersex individuals. We talked about how bad female genital mutilation is. We talked about a lot of things that I think are insane, like people who fall in love (sexually) with furniture and the Golden Gate Bridge. We talked about things that I don't agree with, like "healthy at every size." The whole entire class revolved around everyone being free to have control of their own bodies and feelings.

                        Then we started talking about circumcision. She told us that circumcision is a good thing. She told us that it is a healthy procedure that helps prevent spread of STD's. She told us that it helps people fit in with society. She completely reverted on every sentiment she fed to us just to say that circumcision is a good thing. And when she gave an anonymous poll to the class (~300 people) on our opinions on circumcision, I was the only one who gave a negative opinion.

                        That's the fight you're signing up for if you're an intactivist in the US. Even the most progressive and generally educated students in a liberal university are voting that circumcision is good. Most circumcised people in this country would probably defend circumcision. We think that we are fighting the good fight, but so many people just really don't care.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RTMHtom View Post
                          Reality, I don't think you understand. You sound just like the accused of rape. You have taken so many assumptions, and you are attacking peoples character. Defending something awful that people get away with. But you don't know any of us or clearly much of anything. Are we angry? I haven't met a circumcised man that isn't. Circumcision has changed my life for the worst. You take the assumption that I'm trying to get people hanged. I have forgiven the man who has mutilated me. The devil lurks behind every corner. It wasn't his responsibility to protect me. To forgive and restore is to rise above. But It bothers me that this nation mutilates their sons. Circumcision is indeed rape. Do I have to prove it in court? Maybe one day hopefully. But it starts with our culture that isn't educated or informed on the foreskin. To this culture, the male genitalia is a joke and not as important as the vagina. It's not ok to body shame women but there is no lack of body shaming to men and their genitals on just about every level. So much for equality. News flash the vagina is meaningless without the other. The goal is a world with intact genitals for male, female and don't forget trans people who also face people altering them before they become adults, able to decide for themselves. If you don't know the importance of it then It doesn't seem like loss at all, which is right where the industry wants us. And thats where were at. You said it yourself you don't believe its an issue on the real world stage. Which just shows you don't know how damaging physically and psychologically circumcision really is. Every point you have brought up has been covered in books and links all over the net. By professionals all over the world. The USA is behind on a lot of things including this.


                          Here is some good reading for you:

                          http://time.com/40110/rape-culture-is-real/

                          https://www.amazon.com/dp/0964489538/ref=cm_sw_su_dp

                          As far as circumcision not being sexual oh boy do I have some things to share I hope you are ready:

                          http://intactwiki.org/wiki/Acorn_Society

                          Yes its wiki but there are references at the bottom.

                          https://circumcision.org/circumcisio...ers-the-brain/

                          These are just a few and theres tons more.

                          By the way. What and who are you to this community? Are you a cut man? I hope before you respond again that you check out the links or are you just here to troll and victim shame?
                          I think the point Reality is trying to make here is not to dismiss you feelings RTMHtom or claim that you should not be upset about the issue, but that from a legal standpoint, using the term "sexual assault" will not hold up in a court of law. The majority of doctor's are not doing it as a sexual act. They think there are medical, cultural, or any other benefits that seem to outweigh leaving the baby intact. Claiming it is sexual assault will not lend the medical establishment of thinking it in that way because they are treating it like any other medical procedure. There may be outliers who are getting some sexual satisfaction from circumcision, as you provided, but it is by no means the norm. While you may feel personally that you have been sexually assaulted (I do as well), the narrow definition of that term does not lend itself to convincing the public that is the case, so while RIC may be as bad as rape or worse, claiming it is rape won't convince the judge or jury.

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