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  • Intactivism, Lib Or Con?

    Surfing what's left of Ron's old board, I found one thread that is worth noting and reviving.

    It asks if Intactivism is Liberal or conservative.

    I don't know if I gave my views in a post to that thread, or not, because it went over one page, and if I did post, my post is not on the first page.

    Here is a link to the thread:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20101030...ead.php?t=5857

  • #2
    First post to the thread from the old board:
    Old 4 Weeks Ago
    jninja

    Senior Member
    Join Date: Dec 2009
    Posts: 227
    Is intactivism a liberal/conservative thing?

    I hate using labels like these but it is one of those evils of debate.

    I would say from reading posts here that the majority of this board would fall into the liberal category. However, I did some browsing of profiles of intactivist friends of mine on Facebook and the majority of the ones I looked at list themselves as some form of Christian, probably making them more conservative.

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    • #3
      Second post to Page One of the thread from the old board:
      Old 4 Weeks Ago
      Pedantic Nuts's Avatar Pedantic Nuts

      Member
      Join Date: Jun 2010
      Location: New York
      Posts: 74
      Re: Is intactivism a liberal/conservative thing?

      I don't think it can be classified that way. And so you know, the region I live in is largely liberal and also has among the highest rates of circumcision in America.

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      • #4
        Third Post:
        Old 4 Weeks Ago
        Aspie

        Senior Member
        Join Date: Nov 2009
        Posts: 340
        Re: Is intactivism a liberal/conservative thing?

        It is neither a liberal or conservative thing it is simply a human rights thing.

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        • #5
          Fourth Post
          Old 4 Weeks Ago
          z726

          Senior Member
          Join Date: Feb 2007
          Location: California
          Posts: 984
          Re: Is intactivism a liberal/conservative thing?

          The issue may not be political, but there are many proponents of circumcision out there who would be quick to equate anti-circumcision activism with extreme liberal or even radical viewpoints. That makes it easier for them to avoid arguing a rational position, instead turning the debate into an ad hominem attack.

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          - Z

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          • #6
            Fifth Post:
            Old 4 Weeks Ago
            ctrclckws's Avatar ctrclckws

            Senior Member
            Join Date: Sep 2008
            Location: New York Metro
            Posts: 711
            Re: Is intactivism a liberal/conservative thing?

            I would have conserved my foreskin, but my mother was too liberal with it, and had the doctors cut it off.

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            • #7
              Sixth Post:
              Old 4 Weeks Ago
              admin

              Administrator
              Join Date: Sep 2006
              Posts: 3,020
              Re: Is intactivism a liberal/conservative thing?

              I think a lot of people who circumcise family members feel it is their right as parents to make such a decision.

              The notion that the government might tell parents what they can and can't do to the their own kids is something conservatives tend to get riled up over.

              A lot of people circumcise their babies for perceived religious reasons. The idea that religion should dictate public policy is something liberals tend to get riled up over.

              A lot of people who favor leaving an infant intact also favor a mom's right to nurse her baby openly any time / any place that she and her baby are otherwise welcome to be. The idea of whipping out a breast in public is something conservatives tend to get riled up over.

              Saying that the body is perfectly evolved and that humans are not an exception to the notion that no mammal needs surgical correction at birth would place the theory of evolution at a status that conservatives tend to get riled up over.

              So on the whole intactivism is a liberal notion, if for no other reason than we are talking about changing the status quo.

              But labels are not very helpful except to mass marketers. We mostly do our influencing on a person-to-person basis. We're going to encounter church ladies who are pro breastfeeding and atheists who can't be persuaded that the value of the foreskin should play any role in the discussion of an infant's right to remain intact. I know I've met both of these people recently.

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              • #8
                It's not a liberal or conservative issue. It's about basic human rights, respect and decency. There are good people on both sides of the aisle.

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                • #9
                  parsecskin, your quick response shows me that reviving this surviving thread (got 4 more posts to go), from the old board was worth doing.

                  I view things the way that you do.

                  I do not say that the words, "liberal" and conservative are totally useless and meaningless, and although some people use those two words in describing themselves, no one could formulate a laundry list of things that are "libetal" and "conservative" and hold their followers to it, because we are all very uniquely different individuals.

                  And, over time, what was once liberal becomes establisehd, and then what becomes conservative when people want to change it.

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                  • #10
                    Seventh post to original thread.

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                    #7
                    Old 4 Weeks Ago
                    Ozymandias
                    Junior Member
                    Join Date: May 2010
                    Posts: 24

                    Re: Is intactivism a liberal/conservative thing?

                    Hello,

                    Liberalism and conservative, where do I start?

                    Well for a kickoff, in my way of looking at things, all words are labels.

                    In as much as - if you can't say what you are labelling, you don't know what you are talking about.

                    Most people use labels, as a label to a box. If you stick a label on a box without knowing what is within that box, again you don't know what you are talking about.

                    Two very good examples for this are, people who have lots of money, power, qualifications, and apparent expertise at computers, who don't have any understanding of Boolean algebra. Another example, is people who are deeply involved in the automobile industry, who do not understand the difference between a diesel engine and a petrol engine.

                    There is an apparent political difference in the vote for changes in what is considered 'the good life'. Basically conservatives want to maintain the 'status quo' and the opposite to conservatives want change, note my non use of the term 'liberal' to me, liberal to me means generous, some of the changes our species need to make, mean the opposite to generous. We need to tighten our belts in terms of the health of our planet.

                    The main indices of planetry health I use is, the degree of speciation our planet of eden supports, sadly it very much seems to me, that our species reduces speciation not increases it.

                    What does mass male circumcision do to the balance between those who politically advocate change and those who don't?

                    Regards,

                    Peter.

                    http://dollyknot.com
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                    • #11
                      Eighth post to original thread.
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                      #8
                      Old 4 Weeks Ago
                      Mister.Barbecue
                      Member
                      Join Date: Apr 2010
                      Posts: 72

                      Re: Is intactivism a liberal/conservative thing?

                      Speaking as someone not from the United States, I can say that the "liberal/conservative" polarization is not as big a thing in other countries. There isn't really such thing as a "liberal" in other countries. I think it has to do with the two-party system in the USA.

                      Anyway, my two cents: I know some people who are very opposed to abortion ("conservative) and for the same reasons are opposed to circumcision. "You don't know what the baby would have wanted you to do". So that's their perspective and they equate the two issues. This is an extremely sticky issue and we SHOULD NOT let them ever be conflated. Once even a guy who knew nothing of circumcision said to me "oh, so i guess you're against abortion too, since we can't know what they want either." Whenever you hear this argument, you must shut it down immediately. There can be no connection between these issues, and really they have nothing to do with one another. To let them be together is to undermine the credibility of the movement.

                      -Abortion is killing an unborn fetus
                      -Circumcision is performed on a baby who will one day grow into a man and has the full legal and ethical rights as any other living human being.

                      These arguments have nothing in common.
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                      • #12
                        Ninth post to original thread.
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                        #9
                        Old 4 Weeks Ago
                        jninja
                        Senior Member
                        Join Date: Dec 2009
                        Posts: 227

                        Re: Is intactivism a liberal/conservative thing?

                        A lot of the thoughts that I've had have been posted so far. I hate the whole idea of labeling someone as liberal/conservative because you cannot just call someone a liberal/conservative and figure out all their personal beliefs. For example I would consider myself a social liberal and a fiscal conservative.

                        I would think this would be a liberal thing because of the "anti-religion" feelings typical of liberals and also because of they are usually more naturalistic. However, their blind faith in science would lead them to believe the benefits of circumcision.

                        For conservatives, basically what has been said already.
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                        • #13
                          Tenth post to original thread.
                          Old 2 Weeks Ago
                          peterpink

                          Senior Member
                          Join Date: Mar 2009
                          Posts: 315
                          Re: Is intactivism a liberal/conservative thing?
                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by jninja View Post
                          I would think this would be a liberal thing because of the "anti-religion" feelings typical of liberals and also because of they are usually more naturalistic. However, their blind faith in science would lead them to believe the benefits of circumcision.
                          I would agree that liberals would lead the way away from circumcision, since it is natural. 'Conservative' implies resistance to changing the status quo. Word gives 'open-minded as the synonym for 'Liberal'. However, I don't get this 'blind faith in science' thing. Faith is belief without evidence or belief in the face of opposing evidence. Thus, religious people believe in things like prayer despite the evidence that it does not work when tested statistically. Religion accepts ideas from authority and these ideas are never tested by the believers. Science looks for evidence in support of proposed hypotheses. If there is no evidence, then the hypothesis is discarded. Scientific theories are based on an accumulation of evidence and allow us to make predictions about the world. It is true to say scientists have faith in the scientific method, although it seems strange to call it blind because it is logical and it works. The fact we can communicate on the internet and fly in jets is due to scientific research, not blind faith. If we did not have scientific investigations we would still be relying on superstitions to understand earthquakes and plagues, and the standard of living would be about equivalent to that of medieval Europe. I am very grateful to the advances science has made that make our lives easier.

                          Circumcision in English speaking countries started because the religious conservatives thought that masturbation was a sin against their Abrahamic god (a misinterpretation of Genesis 38: 7-10 which is more about coitus interruptus than masturbation). In the nineteenth century in the UK they started circumcising to stop boys (and also girls) masturbating because they thought as well it would lead to diseases as well as being a sin. Thus medicine hopped on the coat-tails of conservative Christianity. Circumcision served a dual role: medical and moral hygiene. Interestingly, like religion, medicine is very conservative and authoritarian and what the medical authorities said went, then as now. In the second half of the twentieth century medical studies were introduced to justify circumcision, but the majority are of a very low scientific value.

                          The conservative elements in Islam, Judaism and Christianity initiated and kept/keep circumcision going, just as they did slavery until the nineteenth century. It seems it is the liberal element in society that works to eliminate suffering and bring about humanitarian change.

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                          • #14
                            I was very conservative and religious until circumcision caused me to reevaluate everything. Now I am not religious and consider myself to be mildly conservative.

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                            • #15
                              Bllly Ray Boyd, writing in a book published before the word "Intactivism" had been invented, addressed the question of whether the anti-c---------, or the pro foreskin, or Foreskin Restoration movement, asked, and attempted to address the question of whether these two movements were liberal or conservative, and tried to advance the idea that Intactivism & FR had elements that were both liberal and conservative.

                              I passed Billy Ray's book onto another Intactivist-FR friend of mine, who has since Departed the Physical Vehicle, and, I do not even remember the name of Billy Ray's book.

                              My guess is that some of you younger Intactivists-FRs would probably have never heard the name Billy Ray Boyd.

                              To get the name of Billy Ray's book, I will have to go Back to the Bible (not the Holy bible, or any of the many Unholy bibles that have been published over the years but) the Bible of Foreskin Restoration and Intactivism, The Joy of Unc-----------, by Dr. James Bigelow.

                              That is going back 26 years!

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