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  • Have any of you taken legal action?

    im 16, when I turn 18 I want to take some type of legal action over my circumcision. It's an abuse of human rights circumcision a non consenting infant. Would it be possible for me to sue the hospital over this? Have any of you tried?

  • #2
    Talk to David Llewellyn of Arclaw. They specialize in circumcision lawsuits and win many of them. www.arclaw.org
    You go boy! Ram it right up their ass!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by parsecskin View Post
      Talk to David Llewellyn of Arclaw. They specialize in circumcision lawsuits and win many of them. www.arclaw.org
      You go boy! Ram it right up their ass!
      David's a great man and quite a benefactor, but he can't afford to take on all the work to mount a case with a very low likelihood of success. If nothing was particularly botched about your circumcision and if the people involved believed they were given consent to proceed (we know, without your consent, but the legal tradition is what it is) chances are he'll say the odds of recovering a judgement are slim. If so, THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE THE END OF IT.

      These days you can do a crowdfunding campaign to get publicity and support for bringing your suit. In your write-up you can name names. Invite the doctor and hospital and insurance company to contribute to your cause. When they see the campaign they might raise a stink which would just create more publicity.

      To take it all the way to the US supreme court could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Maybe some high-profile do-gooder or the ACLU will have a magical flash of being on the right side of history and step in.
      -Ron Low
      Service@TLCTugger.com
      847 414-1692 Chicago

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by admin View Post

        David's a great man and quite a benefactor, but he can't afford to take on all the work to mount a case with a very low likelihood of success. If nothing was particularly botched about your circumcision and if the people involved believed they were given consent to proceed (we know, without your consent, but the legal tradition is what it is) chances are he'll say the odds of recovering a judgement are slim. If so, THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE THE END OF IT.

        These days you can do a crowdfunding campaign to get publicity and support for bringing your suit. In your write-up you can name names. Invite the doctor and hospital and insurance company to contribute to your cause. When they see the campaign they might raise a stink which would just create more publicity.

        To take it all the way to the US supreme court could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Maybe some high-profile do-gooder or the ACLU will have a magical flash of being on the right side of history and step in.
        There was nothing botched about mine. I'm wondering if it'd be possible to have a lawsuit not solely over my circumcision but a lawsuit challenging the legality of male circumcision in the US. I mean this has to be a human rights violation. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in court and lawyer fees wouldn't be much for me, my parents have fat pay checks, so I'm not too worried about costs (not to sound like a bragging spoiled brat) I know my mom would probably be willing to contribute to the costs as I've made her feel really guilty (albeit unintentionally) about my circumcision by telling her how depressed it's made me and how it's affected my mental health.

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        • #5
          Google "Peter Adler Is Circumcision Legal" and a bunch of great stuff comes up. He ABSOLUTELY destroys the "legality" of circumcision in several ways. He may be of some help.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jason11 View Post

            There was nothing botched about mine. I'm wondering if it'd be possible to have a lawsuit not solely over my circumcision but a lawsuit challenging the legality of male circumcision in the US. I mean this has to be a human rights violation. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in court and lawyer fees wouldn't be much for me, my parents have fat pay checks, so I'm not too worried about costs (not to sound like a bragging spoiled brat) I know my mom would probably be willing to contribute to the costs as I've made her feel really guilty (albeit unintentionally) about my circumcision by telling her how depressed it's made me and how it's affected my mental health.
            You were just given a great post by Ron. Please go back and re read it. Please give it the worth that it has. This kind of information is rare on forums in general, and especially rare on restoration forums where emotion and trying to goad the choir (just for self-focused conversation) is the usual limited view.

            In his post, he told you that any claim you think you might have, simply doesn't stand with any strength. Not at this point in time, and not in the near future, and there's a simple reason why. Somehow you ignored that, or didn't understand that.

            So I'll re emphasize (and add a bit to) the point. You, a whole bunch of "yous", ( hell, all of the "yous") in the US, aren't in a position to challenge "the legality of male circumcision in the US"; this would include RIC, and certainly include therapeutic circumcision. While the first is the primary battleground, you'll certainly never "win" the latter, nor should you. You are free to challenge circ, but it won't be advised, and certainly not on some all-inclusive scale. You will find it very difficult to find representation. Here's why:

            Why is a "challenge" moot? The Law can never "challenge", or better said, rule on an issue until it is recognized as a legal issue, and codified as same, which requires a history of expert testimony, and legal precedent. And it's not uncommon for this, if it ever does happen, to be regional, not nation wide. That's how the Law works out there in the real world.

            In addition, perhaps you aren't aware of the fact that male circumcision hasn't even been given a specific definition by Medicine yet; not in the detail which most other procedures are described. So perhaps you can see, uninformed "talk" won't get it. In other words, what this means is, there is no issue, there are no specific parameters, and therefore no "challenge" to base a claim on, until circumcision as a procedure is specifically detailed, and any resulting loss which will only be in reference to malpractice is understood and specified. The Law has a narrow focus, as it should, and the word "challenge" as you've used it, has no particular relevance in the real world.

            Please realize, Intactivism isn't a mental game which uses concepts typical of forum chatter (ie a nation wide "challenge"). Intactivism has to be above chatter. Intactivism is predicated on actually understanding the facts involved in a a complex situation. Anything short of that is just more chatter.

            Now, you may not understand any of this, but really, it's a very simple matter for those of us who do understand. Welcome to the real world.
            Last edited by Reality; 06-14-2018, 06:57 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              There are interesting new avenues that can be pursued. Peter Adler has given talks about them. For example, instead of suing for malpractice (even though it is), we might sue for professional fraud. It has much longer timelines before the statute of limitations kicks in.

              Anyone who can afford to coerce a lawyer to take a case (that s/he otherwise wouldn't on a strict contingency basis) should go for it. However, be aware that pursuing something even to the Supreme Court and losing could set a precedent that actually hurts the cause while costing a fortune.
              -Ron Low
              Service@TLCTugger.com
              847 414-1692 Chicago

              Comment


              • #8
                While I like the idea of circ as "professional fraud", RIC easily sidesteps this.

                RIC is done within a bundle of birthing fees. That bundle is generally managed by the accounting department of a facility, or by a physician group, only in a paperwork kind of way. Fee for service, it's called. This means routine circumcision is essentially unseen by the interests who can best make a change in the practice, ie the payers themselves. RIC is a historical "old boy network" kind of thing, as seen by the payers (insurance carriers), and also historically, this setting is seen as more the territory of the OB's for the simple reason that they are the clinical professionals. This means no one would claim fraud per se. However......

                There exist several groups who formulate sets of guidelines which address circ. These guidelines draw their information from ongoing studies. Are there ongoing studies on circ currently? I personally don't know. But this is one avenue where RIC can, and I believe will, change. But that said.......

                Nobody has ever (to my knowledge) challenged RIC from a professional standpoint otherwise (now we can use the word "challenge" because it's within a (clinical) setting, where it's a dialogue between the primary parties who can draw from a "best practice" ethic). It is highly unlikely that the word "fraud" would ever be used here, though, partly because it would be conservative peer review, but mostly because fraud is seen as procedures which have not been actually done, but claimed and paid for. That's actually the definition of fraud; it's based on money spent (that's the "loss" which is recognized) with nothing in return.

                This is why Distalero had a conversation (more than one, as I understand it) with his higher-ups, and the chief MO of several carriers. He came at it from both directions. He did this under the banner of an IPA (a group of physicians who allowed him to do this), and he did it with the view that the payers can save money by carving RIC out of the bundle. This would help to shine a light on an otherwise more-or-less silent practice. You gotta start somewhere, and money is always a great motivator. It motivates the performers of circ (they get paid), and it can motivate the carriers not to pay if they don't have to. But that's one of the real issues here. Are carriers willing to break through the old boy network? What rationale would they use to do that?

                I don't know how all medical insurance carriers view the issue, but as I've said, RIC generally remains a given because it's seen as routine, done by professionals. There is no professional entity outside of this scenario who carries the authority to see circ "losses" as truly physiological and functional losses. No one outside of the clinical arena is seen as having that authority. EXCEPT for those guideline providers. Millimans, ICD-10 code, etc.

                But ...... "fraud" might be claimed (I suppose) if all possible adverse outcomes are not spelled out specifically on the consent, although this sounds weak to me, and I'm not an attorney. You have to realize, again, that the kinds of loss referred to on restoration forums are not seen as losses in the clinical setting. Not yet. Probably not until there are studies done which confirm this, and of course this is highly problematic.

                So......this is where it all falls apart again. As you can see, RIC is a multifactorial issue, with as-yet protected interests, and no hard evidence from the view of recognized personal physiological/functional loss as a result of tissue destruction from circ. You can claim it, but you gotta prove it, based in confirmed information as recognized by the professionals.

                Good thread. Probably belongs in the Intactivism section.
                Last edited by Reality; 06-15-2018, 08:02 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Reality View Post

                  You were just given a great post by Ron. Please go back and re read it. Please give it the worth that it has. This kind of information is rare on forums in general, and especially rare on restoration forums where emotion and trying to goad the choir (just for self-focused conversation) is the usual limited view.

                  In his post, he told you that any claim you think you might have, simply doesn't stand with any strength. Not at this point in time, and not in the near future, and there's a simple reason why. Somehow you ignored that, or didn't understand that.

                  So I'll re emphasize (and add a bit to) the point. You, a whole bunch of "yous", ( hell, all of the "yous") in the US, aren't in a position to challenge "the legality of male circumcision in the US"; this would include RIC, and certainly include therapeutic circumcision. While the first is the primary battleground, you'll certainly never "win" the latter, nor should you. You are free to challenge circ, but it won't be advised, and certainly not on some all-inclusive scale. You will find it very difficult to find representation. Here's why:

                  Why is a "challenge" moot? The Law can never "challenge", or better said, rule on an issue until it is recognized as a legal issue, and codified as same, which requires a history of expert testimony, and legal precedent. And it's not uncommon for this, if it ever does happen, to be regional, not nation wide. That's how the Law works out there in the real world.

                  In addition, perhaps you aren't aware of the fact that male circumcision hasn't even been given a specific definition by Medicine yet; not in the detail which most other procedures are described. So perhaps you can see, uninformed "talk" won't get it. In other words, what this means is, there is no issue, there are no specific parameters, and therefore no "challenge" to base a claim on, until circumcision as a procedure is specifically detailed, and any resulting loss which will only be in reference to malpractice is understood and specified. The Law has a narrow focus, as it should, and the word "challenge" as you've used it, has no particular relevance in the real world.

                  Please realize, Intactivism isn't a mental game which uses concepts typical of forum chatter (ie a nation wide "challenge"). Intactivism has to be above chatter. Intactivism is predicated on actually understanding the facts involved in a a complex situation. Anything short of that is just more chatter.

                  Now, you may not understand any of this, but really, it's a very simple matter for those of us who do understand. Welcome to the real world.
                  I should have been more specific. I mean the legality of male infant circumcision. And I acknowledge that it is unlikely anything will come from it. I'm not too familiar with the law, but can't someone sue over human rights violations. I know that male infant circumcision isn't currently deemed to be illegal under us law. But I imagine it violates some international treaties on human rights (but I'm not sure).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jason11 View Post

                    I should have been more specific. I mean the legality of male infant circumcision. And I acknowledge that it is unlikely anything will come from it. I'm not too familiar with the law, but can't someone sue over human rights violations. I know that male infant circumcision isn't currently deemed to be illegal under us law. But I imagine it violates some international treaties on human rights (but I'm not sure).
                    It's been explained to you twice now, in detail and with emphasis. You're not grasping the basics, and the basics are there in black and white.

                    Your inability to understand is clear because you are still asking the same naive question, despite having been given information to allow you to understand. My advice would be to let it go, come back to the issues involved when you are a little older, and your ability to comprehend (not to mention your experience) has matured.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      HE WITH THE MOST MONEY WINS!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Just to take a step back from your question - please elaborate on why you would like to take on this case.

                        If you win, you are still a circumcised male with a keratinised glans, depression and lack of genital sensitivity. You just have a bit of extra money at the cost of a lot of time and energy, and having made it very public that you are unhappy to have a mutilated penis. If you lose (which unfortunately is more likely given that your parents would have given consent to the procedure, and it is legal in most [probably every] countries) - you have the same answer as if you win, just minus a lot of money.

                        Because your parents gave the consent, if a court is sympathetic to your case, odds are they would be more likely to award damages against your parents rather than the doctors/hospital - and I am assuming that isn't what you had in mind. To be honest - there is no real scenario where beating your parents in court is beneficial to you in the long run.

                        Further to the above, your hope that the message will be spread by your action is well intentioned, but won't play out as you expect. Videos like "Elephant in the Hospital" are very well sourced and brilliantly put together, yet if you read the comments on them, you'd think the video was some tin-foil-hat conspiracy theory. People trust doctors, and doctors are taught that circumcision is better. So anything you say will always be undercut.

                        In my beloved country - where people believe in "corrective rape" (the logical fallacy that raping a lesbian will turn her straight) and that taking a shower after sex will stop you from getting AIDS - the clinics do free circumcisions because they believe it reduces ones odds of getting AIDS. Many local cultures circumcise their sons at 13 as a coming of age ceremony, often done with uncleaned instruments by traditional healers (also known as "witch doctors"). Every year a few hundred teens die, many lose their penis or have permanent damage to it. We live in a world of odd traditions, and people love their traditions and don't want to be the one to break them.

                        What works in your favour is that you know better. If you have kids some day, you can insist on them not getting cut, and can therefore break the cycle.

                        I absolutely support any action that might take down this barbaric practice - but the fact is that two of the biggest world religions mandate it (Islam and Judaism), and many medical practitioners recommend it. The practice is losing ground to an extent, but the odds that pre-18 circumcision will ever be widely banned is low. The government in my country at one point wanted to make it mandatory, but got a lot of protest. So they suggested banning childhood circumcision, and that got a lot of protest about that as well. Both sides are generally very passionate on this argument.

                        Here's my advice to you:
                        1) If you haven't started restoring yet, start today. Manually tugging can be done while you are sitting on the toilet or in the bath/shower if you want to keep it a secret.
                        2) Find someone that you trust and can talk to in confidence. That can be a psychologist, a friend (who won't discuss it with anyone else) or someone similar. Just be careful who you talk to - the wrong person could make it considerably worse. Also make sure that you are talking to them somewhere private - not near your parents or in a public place.
                        3) You can also post about your anger on a site like this one. Sometimes sharing your problems with others makes a huge difference.
                        4) If you are really angry, write a letter to whoever you are angry with. Make it as hateful and nasty as you need to. Then read it, make sure the grammar is good and that you have said everything you wanted to say. And then take the letter and burn it (or delete it if it is a digital letter). It sounds odd, but this actually helps a lot.

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