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  • OzVic
    replied
    Info - well said, Foregen is proving to be another business scam for preying on peoples false hopes and desires - to extract .... cash.
    Simple as that - no matter how badly they try to white wash it while playing the shell game.
    There are others who are doing real regenerative medicine and no they are not doing foreskins yet.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    You know, on second thought, I won't address this link. Tired of this at this point. Almost the entirety of it is inaccurate, half truth, with some of it totally false, as stated, and frankly it's tiring to deal point by point with the whole mess, so I ain't a gonna. Anybody interested can read it for themselves. You'll find it is a mess from a scientific view. You may be able to see that as you read it, or you won't, depending on what kind of background you have, I suppose. I think Foregen is counting on 'won't'. Thanks for the link, though, it continue to bear out my suspicions.

    But I'll say this, because it hits home for this forum: When I read Foregen's website, I found a reference to us, we tuggers, and how we "stretch" our skin. Yep. A moment for putting my head down on my desk and letting out a plaintive moan . Think about it. If you can't get the science of long-established and long-proven skin expansion right, then how the hell are you gonna convince anybody (with any sense) that you have real intent, let alone any kind of ability in all of this. What I read was anything but scientific, including "stretch(ing)".

    And, add to that another description of us, or rather of what we do, which also caught my eye: it was said about our results from tugging (and I quote them) that we produce an "abnormal" amount of blood vessels in our new skin. "Abnormal"? Really? Anybody here give somebody a tissue specimen to analyze?

    So....abnormality based on what? Think about this: if it's an increased amount of vessels, why not call it that, or call it 'highly vascularized ' if you're scientifically literate. I say this because the scientifically literate have called it this. But Foregen didn't, they call it "abnormal". Such a strange way to put it. Could this be one of those not-so-subtle shots at tugging, which by the way is the only technique proven and in place (naturally) to create more skin?

    What that characterization probably refers to is a basic misunderstanding of the results of clinical single epidermal layer expansion, which (if it's done slowly,) usually results in highly vascularized tissue (my emphasis, but also a quote from a research paper) over that balloon implant. Of course we don't do it that way, Foregen, and we don't expect results in 8 weeks or so. But if you don't actually understand what this means (or maybe if you have an agenda towards tugging, whatever else you say), then I guess you'd call it "abnormal". But it is not "abnormal" (certainly under the classic meaning of the word). There are some abnormalities found with rapid expansion, but we don't ever see them because we go much slower in our expansion. So.....I've brought you more actual science in this paragraph than they do in the link.

    So what gives, Foregen PR hacks? I know why you don't you seem to understand the complexities of so-called "regeneration" "medicine" (it doesn't exist), or the complexities of stem cell research (no routine medicine there either), and certainly not the entirely separate world of multiple agency approval of a product before it can be used (the steps of which are known, despite what the link says), but why can't you get the very basics, or hell, the pre-basics, right?
    Last edited by Info; 04-09-2016, 05:54 PM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Narktor View Post
    If someone is truly interested in Foregen, he can ask questions either on Facebook where Eric Cunningham answers most of them pretty quickly (usually within 12-24 hours) or here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ForeKin/
    Its a community driven reddit, but most of your questions can be answered there. or you find them in the FAQ https://www.reddit.com/r/ForeKin/wiki/index

    See ya
    Thanks. I for one appreciate any additional information when it's available. When I get a chance (or I'm given the chance, now that I'm saying this) I'll come back and address this, 'cause.........with a cursory look there are flaws in that second link.
    Last edited by Info; 04-08-2016, 09:46 PM.

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  • Narktor
    replied
    If someone is truly interested in Foregen, he can ask questions either on Facebook where Eric Cunningham answers most of them pretty quickly (usually within 12-24 hours) or here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ForeKin/
    Its a community driven reddit, but most of your questions can be answered there. or you find them in the FAQ https://www.reddit.com/r/ForeKin/wiki/index

    See ya

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Good! If you do I'll look for it, always interested in new information.

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  • Plush1992
    replied
    Thank you for the eloquent reply. "pitches from guys who thought they were the first to "bring Foregen" to the forum." I feel like this pretty much defined what I was trying to do. To be honest I feel like your comment has opened my eyes a bit and gives me understanding as to why some don't support Foregen. Ive re-read your comment like 4 times now because what you say is pretty spot on and it shows me an aspect of how you guys on this site view Foregen supporters, people who are more hopeful and optimistic than they should be, people who provide too little information and have little grasp on the actual regeneration techniques.

    This thread most definitely has gone on long enough (dead thread). However I will say this, if I do decide to make another thread it will have all the information I can possibly attain both negative and positive aswell as having a basic brief of their history with current updates. I will have a better grasp and better understanding of the techniques that are planned on being used to regenerate the foreskin if or when I do this. If I do choose to create this thread im going to do my best to make sure its as objective as possible and different from all the other threads that you've seen in the past. It wont be a "pitch" thread either, just a thread stating who and what Foregen is, because lets face it, they are a bit of an oddball organization so some clarity is needed.

    In any case this wont be for a while, so I can get my ducks in order and if I do I will screenshot everything and let you take a good look at it all for your input, opinion and edits before posting, if you like. You seem to know alot more than most on here about these topics and ask good questions.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    1. Foregen has been around for years now. They've made their pitch for money in various ways, in various venues, and those pitches found their way onto Ron's old forum over that time. I would imagine that just about everybody on this forum knows about Foregen, then, because it's my impression that most of the members here were members on the old forum, So if most of us here know about them, you have to ask yourself, why hasn't any more than a few members, and that jerk Info, reply? Here's why I think that's true:

    2. The discussion there was similar to this thread; pitches from guys who thought they were the first to "bring Foregen" to the forum. An infamous member there tried to input much of the same information that I have here. He knew what he was talking about, and he had experience similar to mine, so he asked good questions. His questions, and his oblique answers to his own questions, were his credentials. I agree with that. It's important to ask questions. He felt it isn't enough to just ask for money without getting a little information in return, and he could see that the guys who were proponents of Foregen didn't have any information. And they had that odd approach; odd compared to how things work in research into this field.

    3. The information the old forum got has never been specific. The big guys (the professional researchers) have come out with the incremental advances in this field. When that member asked what specific Foregen was proposing, the usual reply was "Foregen wants to protect their copyright".so no information was given (except for the "bulls foreskin" thing and a few other things about how money was being collected, and of course the HUFO thing). That infamous member, Distalero, knew that wasn't the way things work for anything at this stage of the embryonic/highly experimental field of tissue engineering, so he saw through that right away. And he said so.

    4. So some members there did start a "no negative thinking" thread, which really meant they only wanted to hear about what they hoped would happen "someday", or "not more than 10 years", or......whatever the timeframe du jour was. They believed this was, and is, possible, based on..........what? Certainly not on what the big guys were talking about. These members didn't even seem to have a grasp on the basic anatomy of foreskin tissue (which is made of a number of tissues). This is why I use the term "hopers and believers"; no knowledge about any aspect of this whole issue, just hope and believe. With one laudable exception, those members did not want to engage in discussion, they just wanted to, as Distalero used to say, engage in "fantasy". I have to agree with him because very little has ever been described, and what has been stated by Foregen has been scarce and sometimes contradictory.

    5. The big guys are trustworthy for a number of reasons, but certainly by their reporting of believable, in-scale advances. When that happens, the discussion picks up, and more members join in. That's all it takes: reporting.

    6. I can't agree with your use of the word "pessimist": this discussion has gone on so long, with very little having happened or explained, that some of us see this discussion as done to death. So you can take that as pessimism, if you choose to; I take it as better perspective on what the issues are. The other word for that is knowledgeable.

    I should say, thanks for the piechart. That's more than I've seen in a long time. Of course it puts more perspective to Foregen's internal workings, which may or may not be appreciated by some members here, but it is information.
    Last edited by Info; 03-08-2016, 09:26 PM.

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  • Plush1992
    replied
    Haha yes a little angry is correct. Im trying to extend an olive branch to you fella's but maybe im doing it in the complete wrong way? Im actually quite sure that you do know alot about regeneration, and im sure you know more than me, im not an expert at all but you making that claim on your own behalf is a cheap way to dismiss peoples arguments. Im no expert so im not the person to be asking if regeneration is possible or not, all I can do is throw in my 2 cents. In no way though am I a representative of Foregen, lets make this clear (im too brash for that any how) all the info ive gotten is through basic internet searches and staying tuned in. I probably should of started this thread in a completely different manner (so I take blame for this). The whole point of this thread was to state that they need more funding to do constant research and at $10 a person all they need is 2,000 people to support them to make this possible (according to them). Its not much to ask for a organization that has shown much growth over the past 2 years, and yes theres a reason I wasn't donating to them 2 years ago, but now I am.

    Frankly I thought you guys would be thrilled to know theres a group of people out there trying to regenerate a foreskin for us, so yes I thought it would be easy to get you guys on board. When I seen you had some good questions to ask thats why I wanted to open a thread that simply states the facts of what they are doing and have done, as-well as having links that show the advancements thats been made in the field and links like yours that shows the current problems, to give people a basic idea of whats going on because I feel that alot of people have outdated information on this subject.

    Stones have been cast on both sides. You label me as a bully, you label Foregen supporters as hopeful believers who follow blindly which is belittling with in itself, you've put words into my mouth over me bringing up the thread ideas and you vaguely call yourself a medical professional yet fail to state what profession in the medical industry your apart of and what degree you have and im the only one whose lost credibility and alienated groups of people? This is all in my defense, so lets just get down to the actual info, Info.

    To be frank I dont care if Ive undercut some credibility ive had with strangers on a forum because my answers are considered too vague, im just stating what I know and thats all I can do. I think you are right though, this is a restoration site not a regeneration site, and lets be honest, its probably not right to promote Foregen and regeneration on this site to begin with.
    Last edited by Plush1992; 03-08-2016, 08:33 PM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by OzVic View Post

    Good points - So in a nut shell skin generation is not up to scratch because it can and does degrade to cancer at this time ....
    I haven't been able to find that article yet, but I have found an abstract that touches on the issue. They're talking about embryonic stem cells here, which of course have a whole bunch of legal/moral issues attached, but embryonic stem cells are recognized as the best route to take because they specifically have the ability to differentiate into all the types needed to grow various organ tissues. Adult stem cells were the focus of that article I can't find (if I remember correctly), and they too have problems associated, with much less ability to differentiate into tissue, and they carry a lower purity issue, including a potential to become what is called teratomatic, leading to cancer.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2733374/

    I'll keep looking. I found a really good overview of tissue engineering and the issues this experimental field brings to scientific research, so I'll add that when I get a chance.........................Hah! here it is:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1299182/

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Plush1992 View Post
    Ive answered your questions enough times, im now just clearly repeating myself. I already answered your question on the bulls foreskin and matrix to begin with but im starting to think no answer will be good enough or my very simple points have gone over your head. Yes de-cellurization has already been done before and it is already known how to do this, but that does not mean they can just skip that step. They (yes im using the word they) have to de-cellurize a foreskin to then learn how to re-cellurize it and go through the steps of trial and error.

    Forums are for discussing but this thread has become completely useless. Nobody is going to come to this thread for information. You complain about a lack of information from an investors stand point but then when I bring up the idea of a thread dedicated to just posting facts, studies ect, you complain once again. Now you bring it a step further and free of evidence accuse me of wanting a circle jerk of a thread about Foregen where dissenting viewpoints are silenced. "open to only you and other proponents of Foregen" You are now attacking me for things I never stated and putting words into my mouth.

    You have gone way past the point of being skeptical to just plain pessimistic. Foregen used to have forums themselves filled with people who "hope and believe, blindly usually" as you stated yet were already in very depth conversation about the same things you are bringing up and some of the problems with foreskin regeneration. Actually their conversations were in much further depth than in this thread yet according to you they are just fools who blindly follow and believe. Difference is they were actually helpful to the cause not detrimental. I mean when your attacking me for using the word "they" I think this conversation has lost any and all merit by this point. Id love to stick around and discuss things such has nerve regeneration and de-generation and cancer forming around newly developed regenerated tissue but id be insane for continuing on with this conversation and expecting a different result.

    You accuse us Foregen supporters of being foolish and will believe anything (maybe so) when I think its the complete opposite, alot of you restorers on this site are known across the internet for being depressed little pessimist and when shown a small glimmer of light, you shut the shades.
    Oooo, a little angry here. And considering this is a foreskin restoration forum, a bit belittling of that whole practice and those of us who do it, and those who've finished, and do I need to say, finished with a tangible and functional result. We finished guys, and I'm one of them, have seen what's possible with our own efforts. It's not only not bad, in fact it's a whole order of better, and it's very real. But hey, don't leave in a huff, discuss. If you don't know what Foregen is actually doing, then find out and tell us about it. Keep the dialogue open. Or.......are "they" as silent with you as they are with us? We've actually received a bit more information from you than we have in the past.

    All that aside, though, your definition of "skeptical" is yours, not mine or the next guy's. You're entitled to yours, but you can't control ours by getting huffy, nor should you. Skepticism is the healthy approach when you don't know much about a subject. But, as you're discovering, I wouldn't call myself skeptical about tissue engineering, and where it is currently, and I'm no more pessimistic than the pros. I'd call myself comparatively informed. I know more than you about it, and all the steps necessary for research and trial approval, and on to what is necessary for all the steps to be passed for a proven product to become available. If it ever does.

    How am I informed? Because I've stayed relatively current with the articles and literature, I have a background in medical science, and I've had to deal with several aspects of the experimental nature of tissue engineering in a career of mine (this is where I became aware of El Distalero ).

    That seems to be the difficulty you're having in this discussion. You seem to think that we "depressed little pessimist (sic)" are open to vague answers and handing over cash. Some guys are, some aren't. Maybe we seemed easy to you, but you can't bully those of us who aren't. I would have to say that if Foregen is on the up-and-up, and you either are, or want to be, a representative of theirs, then you aren't doing them a service with this kind of response. You've just alienated some of us, and you've undercut what credibility you had with some of us. So relax, keep the channel open. Info is my screen name because info is what I'm all about, so if you have some, I'm interested.

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  • Plush1992
    replied
    Ive answered your questions enough times, im now just clearly repeating myself. I already answered your question on the bulls foreskin and matrix to begin with but im starting to think no answer will be good enough or my very simple points have gone over your head. Yes de-cellurization has already been done before and it is already known how to do this, but that does not mean they can just skip that step. They (yes im using the word they) have to de-cellurize a foreskin to then learn how to re-cellurize it and go through the steps of trial and error.

    Forums are for discussing but this thread has become completely useless. Nobody is going to come to this thread for information. You complain about a lack of information from an investors stand point but then when I bring up the idea of a thread dedicated to just posting facts, studies ect, you complain once again. Now you bring it a step further and free of evidence accuse me of wanting a circle jerk of a thread about Foregen where dissenting viewpoints are silenced. "open to only you and other proponents of Foregen" You are now attacking me for things I never stated and putting words into my mouth.

    You have gone way past the point of being skeptical to just plain pessimistic. Foregen used to have forums themselves filled with people who "hope and believe, blindly usually" as you stated yet were already in very depth conversation about the same things you are bringing up and some of the problems with foreskin regeneration. Actually their conversations were in much further depth than in this thread yet according to you they are just fools who blindly follow and believe. Difference is they were actually helpful to the cause not detrimental. I mean when your attacking me for using the word "they" I think this conversation has lost any and all merit by this point. Id love to stick around and discuss things such has nerve regeneration and de-generation and cancer forming around newly developed regenerated tissue but id be insane for continuing on with this conversation and expecting a different result.

    You accuse us Foregen supporters of being foolish and will believe anything (maybe so) when I think its the complete opposite, alot of you restorers on this site are known across the internet for being depressed little pessimist and when shown a small glimmer of light, you shut the shades.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by OzVic View Post

    Good points - So in a nut shell skin generation is not up to scratch because it can and does degrade to cancer at this time, well that is going to be slight stumbling block as they bury their mistakes out the back..........

    The tissue that research has grown doesn't always degrade and form cancer, which is good news, but it has done it enough times for it to be a risk. Wish I'd saved that link. I'll look for it, see if I can find it online; it's an issue that widens the perspective on tissue regeneration.

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  • OzVic
    replied
    Originally posted by Info View Post
    And here's something I'd forgotten about, but was reminded of just a few minutes ago by someone who works here, regarding a point Distalero made awhile back. He posted a link to a little discussed issue with tissue regeneration (Distalero knew his stuff), ie cell degradation and spontaneous cancer cell formation. Still a big issue in the field, as I've been told. So.......an impasse that nobody ever discusses, rarely the big guys in the know, and therefore never by the little guy over there next to the big foreskin model. Now THIS should be included in any thread, biased and locked, or open and questioning, along with all my other questions.
    Good points - So in a nut shell skin generation is not up to scratch because it can and does degrade to cancer at this time, well that is going to be slight stumbling block as they bury their mistakes out the back.
    At this time it is worse that vapor for foreskin ware with fancy marketing and finance behind it and no real game changing seismic leap into the future - as promised.

    Maybe they should start a crowd fund for studding how lizards grow back their tails for more plausible research - but then a quantum leap is needed to apply it to foreskins.

    As others have said - Never mind the complexity of re-attaching nerves and ones documented to have ceased functioning and atrophied - including the corresponding connections in the brain.
    Reversing infant circ is not like an adult foreskin in an accident needing repair (we don't even have that technology correct yet either) When they can join nerves and spinal cords then this tech may be able to be able to be applied with some limited applications.

    It's great to dream (or be lazy about tugging) - but some times things when too good to be true - end up in the world of reality being just a pipe dream.

    Worthy goal - yes, but the human species has NOT got anywhere enough know how yet. suspect grand grand children will be 6ft under and this will still be going on unless the root cause is made illegal.


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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    And here's something I'd forgotten about, but was reminded of just a few minutes ago by someone who works here, regarding a point Distalero made awhile back. He posted a link to a little discussed issue with tissue regeneration (Distalero knew his stuff), ie cell degradation and spontaneous cancer cell formation. Still a big issue in the field, as I've been told. So.......an impasse that nobody ever discusses, rarely the big guys in the know, and therefore never by the little guy over there next to the big foreskin model. Now THIS should be included in any thread, biased and locked, or open and questioning, along with all my other questions.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Plush1992 View Post

    #1 Haha Cmon, your better than this, If I was so removed from this issue and the research involved I dont think you would of wasted so much of your time replying to my comments

    #3 Well their ultimate goal is to regenerate the foreskin, not to perform advertising or be apart of documentary's but they got to do what they got to do for more funds.

    #5. It was a huge step because now they have all the tools available to go deeper into research. Dont they need De-cellurized foreskins to move onto other steps of research? They cant regenerate a foreskin without de-cellurizing one first, so I dont see how this is a proper point to attack them on. It had to be done to move onto other steps.

    #6 Yes I see how you've arrived at that point and yes frankly Foregen is a bit of an odd ball association mainly because they've had to fight tooth and nail to get where they are today, like I said this whole organization started out with one guy and nothing more, so of course they've done odd things like put themselves on the stock market, but you live and learn, and they have and are still learning.

    #7 The University of Bologna is where they do their experiments because the U.S is too highly regulated for them to even get access to a lab. Not much to debate there. Not much more information I can provide either for thats all I know.

    I think what might be best is too create a non-biased thread on this site that simply states their mission statement, their prior history, their current progress, basic [email protected], and updated with new progress they make. A thread just stating the facts so people on this site can get an objective look at who and what Foregen is. As you said little information has been given so far, so why not create a thread thats just pure information based. No arguments, no rhetoric from either side, just the facts.
    No doubt in my mind that you ARE removed from tissue regeneration, from research in general, and particularly in so-called "foreskin regeneration" because that doesn't exist. Also no doubt, based on what you've posted in all your posts, that you are being vague on purpose, while you continue to say "they", referring to Foregen, as being active in this field, when they aren't in this field at all. And you've missed my point regarding a bull foreskin matrix vs what is already known, but then if you don't have a basic grasp of tissue regeneration as it actually exists in the real world, then you would. (And you missed my sneaky reference to U of B haha. You're gonna have to be quicker than that ).

    As far as the idea about a "non-biased thread" goes, if you want a thread open to only you and other proponents of Foregen, it sounds a little like creating a "nobody can ask pointed questions based on comparisons with the real world field of tissue regeneration" thread. Forums are for discussing (by definition). I, for one, would want to keep that principle active. Anything else is just one-sided and biased, NOT non biased, in fact, towards your own purposes, rather than what others might think (and know, in my case). But whatever. People can read our discussion here and begin to form their own opinion. That's what it's all about, this forum thing.

    The believers will always hope and believe, blindly usually, and the knowers will always question, not the least because we're aware of how much isn't known yet, particularly in this area.
    Last edited by Info; 03-07-2016, 08:52 PM.

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