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Foregens Documentary

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    BlueAlchemy17
    Junior Member

  • BlueAlchemy17
    replied
    Originally posted by Mitchell7 View Post
    There is a doctor who is going to attempt a head transplant in China next year. So working through regulations in regards to the foreskin is should be significantly easier than that.
    Regulations and Culture is why Foregen actually moved their entire operation from the US to Italy. That's actually from their website, but what I would personally surmise is that, regardless of the head of the organization being Italian, but Italy has a population of nearly exclusively intact men and a medical system that actually knows how it works and how to treat it (like not retracting the foreskin until it separates on its own), also because Italy has a nationalized single payor healthcare system, so once the regulations were finally in place, paying for the procedure could potentially not be financially impossible like it would be for us here.

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  • Mitchell7
    Member

  • Mitchell7
    replied
    Just go straight for in vivo regeneration using extra cellular matrix on willing participants in China or some other similar country and see what happens.

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  • Guest
    Guest

  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Here's something that just came out: a surprisingly good take, for popular media, on Dr Atala's recent discussion on small advances in research at Wake Forrest:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...m_hp_ref=world

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  • Plush1992
    Junior Member

  • Plush1992
    replied
    Yep, everything you say in that last comment makes perfect sense. Alot of the current experiments/research does need to be perfected, like with Atala's rabbit penises, apparently the smooth muscles only had like 60% function. Foregen is no where close to performing clinical trials nor do they have any approval to do so, I mean how could they get permission when the tech doesn't exist yet, by no means am I stating they are close. Yeah its like Step 1. Get money, Step 2 Blank, Step 3 Heres your foreskins, as in they don't fully know themselves how to do it, but the only way to know is through research and failed experiments. Kinda like a map maker had to find themselves totally lost to chart new lands to make the maps.

    Well at least its proven regeneration is possible and experts such as Atala do have a rough idea on how to regenerate body parts, even though theres no official, notarized, approved method yet.

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  • Guest
    Guest

  • Guest
    Guest replied
    If you understand that clinical trials involve testing a tangible technique or product on an appropriate selected human being who meets an established set of standards (see? I'm adding to your definition because you didn't), a process which has to be approved by regulatory permission, then I have to ask:

    What technique or product does Foregen have, which has been approved by which agencies, to be performed on whom, and......when? Wake Forrest hasn't advanced this far, but you seem to be saying that Foregen has. In fact Wake Forrest says some of what needs to be perfected, in order for there to be a basis for so-called foreskin "regeneration" (which have never been defined by anyone) hasn't been yet, so I can't believe any statement regarding "clinical trials" because that's way down the road for everybody, and these, and all the other pieces which have to be in place, haven't been described by you, Foregen, or anyone else for that matter, while the field of regenerative research HAS described that things aren't there yet for most of what has to happen.

    It's like CC saying to Isabella, "Hey your Majesty, give me some ships and I'll make you rich", and her answer (with deadpan expression) "Show me the map Chris".

    Ain't no map. Purty simple.
    Guest
    Guest
    Last edited by Guest; 02-24-2016, 01:13 PM.

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  • Plush1992
    Junior Member

  • Plush1992
    replied
    I remember they got some form of approval or licence to do something, thinking back it was most defnitely not clinical trials, but something similar, something important to their cause. This was about 3 years ago when they received this and I just cant remember what it was exactly, just some form of government approval for them to basically exist and do their work. Honestly all I really want to do on here is document their history, the facts and future updates and let the facts speak for themselves.

    "For the purposes of registration, a clinical trial is any research study that prospectively assigns human participants or groups of humans to one or more health-related interventions to evaluate the effects on health outcomes." I don't know how else to understand what clinical trials are besides reading the definition. Am I missing something here?

    Yes, god forbid I try to compliment you on your comment, I will refrain from doing so now on fourth. You said you have experience with researching what is considered "experimental and investigative" medicine. What is your background? What kind of "experience" is this? Is this research of yours backed by a medical committee board? Is your research sourced?

    Yes I understand that Foregens research and experiments are theoretical at this point. All regenerative experiments are at this point, its a very new science to the medical community. The point of theoretical experiments, such as Atala and Foregen, is to decrease the gap between what they hope to achieve and where the field is as of now. This shouldn't be a reason not to support them. Going to the moon was once theoretical at one point and was "hopeful" thinking.

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  • Guest
    Guest

  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Plush1992 View Post

    I think you have a really well thought out comment concerning this situation which is why id love to discuss it in a bit more depth. ...... I know they actually got their licence to do clinical trials years ago, theres actually documentation of this online somewhere, ill try to find it.....

    Fortunately the lab they work with in Italy has already obtained all the proper permits and EU licences to do their work and will at the least make it very easy for them to do clinical trials in Italy.......
    Uh.......you need to look up the definition of "clinical" in the phrase "clinical trials". No sense in using that phrase until you understand what it means, because you undercut anything you say, if you don't. Words are important.

    And my comment isn't "well thought out", it doesn't come from me making it up, it's simply a general description of regen research as it actually exists today, but of course to know that, you'd have to be aware of what actually exists. I can actually add a lot more detail than that because I've had some experience with researching what is considered "experimental and investigative" medicine; medical technique which describes actual products and clinical techniques (not theoretical, but existing, tangible) which have made it the long, long way, over years, out of pure research. This is how I can look at what's said and get a taste of truth, vs "hope" and "some day" (let's call it), and a sense of the huge, echoing gap between where the field is now, and what various groups hope for someday. If nothing else, Atala gives a generalized but concise description of this in that NPR conversation. Go back and listen again to what he says about human trials, and how he backs away from it.

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  • Guest
    Guest

  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Mitchell7 View Post
    Pfizer or Merck dont engage in comedy or enertainment to sell their products. There is no institution involved in regenerative medicine that i am aware of that engages in comedic documentaries to get funding for their projects, because no one would take them seriously enough to fund or invest in their products. Foregen was at the world stem cell meeting in December. They must be taken seriously by the investors and scientists in order for these individuals and companies to consider investing their time and money in Foregen.

    Secondly, China is filled with advanced and state of the art medical facilities,scientists and doctors and there are plenty of places Foregen could go to conduct this trial with the same or better standards as those in the west without the added regulation hindering their efforts.
    You had me with your first paragraph, couldn't agree more with what you said, well put.

    But your second paragraph, to the extent that anyone knows, is inaccurate, let's say. You have to remember, we are at war with China. So far it's just an info war (no relation ), so propaganda is all over the place. I'd suggest you dig around online to see what was said about the so-called "head transplant". Even the popular media scoffed at it, and for good reason. Nobody on this planet is anywhere close to that sort of thing, except evil characters in comic books.

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  • Plush1992
    Junior Member

  • Plush1992
    replied
    Yep, you are right, its one hell of a task they have bestowed upon themselves. Honestly, maybe they wont succeed but the thing is they are the only ones out there right now trying to fix our problems. There is no other organization out there, in the entire world, trying to give us foreskins back, nobody else. They give me a glimour of hope and are working very hard to complete this task and that is enough for me to support them due to that chance they might succeed.

    They would be able to move faster and do constant medical research and experiments if they received enough crowd funding, but they dont. Which is why they do their research in spurts because its all they can afford to do.
    Plush1992
    Junior Member
    Last edited by Plush1992; 02-22-2016, 01:13 AM.

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  • Mitchell7
    Member

  • Mitchell7
    replied
    First they would have to make a living functioning foreskin in a lab. Then they would have to attach it to someone somehow. Then it would have to work. Finally it would have to have the same feeling as a normal foreskin. It will take decades for any type of ex vivo project like this to result in a fully integrated, functioning and feeling foreskin. A foreskin is an even more difficult ex vivo project than a heart or bladder because it doesnt just have to function, it has to feel like a normal one. Also, That bull foreskin update was in 2014.

    Even if Foregen had one hundred million dollars dumped on them tomorrow they would need the cooperation of scientists and doctors who actually have experience in regenerative medicine and know what they are doing to carry out the actual trial.

    If Foregen continues on the path they are on it will take them decades to succeed if they ever do. Honestly i am starting to think the best way forward is the establishment of a new company that is dedicated to the cause and gets straight to the point.

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  • Plush1992
    Junior Member

  • Plush1992
    replied
    Originally posted by Info View Post
    Well that's the issue, it won't be Foregen who does it, never directly, although they make it sound like it will be them. Foregen isn't a scientific research group, they're a money collecting ... whatever you want to call it ... who, so they say, will commission the research, by who knows who, or where, or when, especially if they've never been in communication with mainstream scientific research. Somebody gonna do it in a garage somewhere? If big guns like Wake Forrest aren't anywhere near human trials then you know some unspecified ad hoc group of rogue scientists (assuming they exist) can't be anywhere near human trials.

    The primary point? There isn't anything to try. Wake Forrest is at least generally forthcoming about what is needed and where experimental research is currently. Of course it's simple for them to do that, they're actually telling the truth.

    The other way to look at this is this: when it's time for the big guns to approach the regulatory agencies, they will have done their research with those constraints in mind, and they will have some authority with the agencies. So what will that website, who never mentions the reality of passing regulations, do? Who will recognize them?
    I think you have a really well thought out comment concerning this situation which is why id love to discuss it in a bit more depth. All I really can do is state the facts of the situation. Foregen does have these regulations in mind. What they typically do after experiments is a complete and full write up and documentation of what they did and how they did it so they can present it to a committee board or regulatory board or whoever. I know they actually got their licence to do clinical trials years ago, theres actually documentation of this online somewhere, ill try to find it. In all likely hood any form of permission or license they got years ago will have to be renewed anyway.

    They dont work in a garage but have access to a science lab at the University of Bologna in Italy as-well as having the honor of having a well renowned scientist lead their team (I cant remember her name) who has prior experience in the regenerative field. They have succeded in obtaining a supplier of actual human foreskin tissue that are Consensually obtained. As of now, if you check the updates, they are in their next stage of trials of working with actual human foreskin tissue for de-cellurization and are working on re-cellurizing the bull foreskins.

    Fortunately the lab they work with in Italy has already obtained all the proper permits and EU licences to do their work and will at the least make it very easy for them to do clinical trials in Italy. Foregen is in the process of copyrighting any findings they make as-well. I think its pretty obvious they are serious about they're work and aren't lying about anything as stated in the above quote. Un-less you can prove me wrong, I wouldn't be calling them liars.

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  • Plush1992
    Junior Member

  • Plush1992
    replied
    I dont think Foregen going to China would be benificial or practical for them at all, especially seeing as how none of them speak Chinese.

    I honestly dont see how Foregen co-staring and assisting with publicity for this documentary, which seems very well made so far and has alot of great things to say, is going to hurt their chances of receiving investments simply because the documentary is taking a more light hearted approach instead of a melancholy serious angry approach. If I had to guess I would say this documentary is going to bring positive light and publicity to Foregen, which in all likely hood will bring even more investments compared to now. This is just my opinion though.

    Of course their is no institution resorting to comedic documentaries because none of them are crowd funded like Foregen.

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  • Mitchell7
    Member

  • Mitchell7
    replied
    Pfizer or Merck dont engage in comedy or enertainment to sell their products. There is no institution involved in regenerative medicine that i am aware of that engages in comedic documentaries to get funding for their projects, because no one would take them seriously enough to fund or invest in their products. Foregen was at the world stem cell meeting in December. They must be taken seriously by the investors and scientists in order for these individuals and companies to consider investing their time and money in Foregen.

    Secondly, China is filled with advanced and state of the art medical facilities,scientists and doctors and there are plenty of places Foregen could go to conduct this trial with the same or better standards as those in the west without the added regulation hindering their efforts.

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  • Plush1992
    Junior Member

  • Plush1992
    replied
    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/p...-documentary#/ Heres the link to donate to the documentary if anyones interested. 10 days left.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pVfjUE3QuU Here is a link to HUFO a video that is serious about circumcision, something I feel you all will appreciate. It was funded by the donators of Foregen and is an artificial, accurate, artistic rendition of the human foreskin created by contemporary artist Vincenzo Aiello. This rendition shows that the human foreskin is more than just a "flap of skin".

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  • Plush1992
    Junior Member

  • Plush1992
    replied
    Originally posted by Mitchell7 View Post
    There is a doctor who is going to attempt a head transplant in China next year. So working through regulations in regards to the foreskin is should be significantly easier than that.
    He will probably fail as-well. Who is going to be all like "Well they had a successful foreskin transplant in China, in a dirty completely un-regulated environment by a quack doctor, so now im going to go get that surgery done because it worked over there" No one. Same concept as getting plastic surgery done in Mexico, only idiots do that.

    We do have wayyy to much regulation over here but if Foregen ever finds themselves in China doing experiments, I highly doubt anyone will ever take them seriously here in the United States.

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