Hello - question regarding circumcision

[Shaver933]

I'm expecting a child soon, gender unknown because my wife wants it to be a surprise. My wife wants to circumcise if it's a boy and I am very against. Thus far, we have not been able to reconcile our views. Does anyone know of a way to find out the gender of the baby without my wife's knowledge/consent? If I knew it was a girl, I could drop the topic and not have the friction in our marriage for the next few months.

[Going Hooded]

This honestly breaks my heart that your wife would want this. Maybe there would be some talking points on this website for you and your wife to discuss together.

[z726]

It doesn't have to cause friction. Find a way to communicate your position to her, in as much detail as possible. Whether your reasons are personal, out of concerns for the child's welfare, or both, she needs to know it all - and if you don't continue to speak up about it, she won't understand how important this is to you (or any son you might have).

If it isn't too much to ask, what are your reasons for being against it, as well as her reasons for wanting it done? Perhaps sharing your thoughts here will help you get a better idea of how to approach the subject with your wife. People here would surely have suggestions, and can provide links to various information online supporting your arguments - and probably many others in favor of leaving a baby intact.

[Tormod]

Two short comments.
Could you persuade your wife to settle for opening a bank account in favour of your son so that he could decide himself (at age 18) if he wants to use the money for his own circumcision.

Any women that I ever got naked with (many, many years ago now!) got to know of my thoughts about neo-natal circumcision.

[greg_b]

I would keep the dialogue going. If you do not resolve it before the baby is born, then the doctor's will have final say simply because they will be considered experts and they will give biased and poor information, assuming they are pro circ. No I do not know how you can secretly determine the gender of the fetus, but there will probably come a time when you both will find out, so then the discussion may be moot.

I can suggest a few things. First, learn how to stay in dialogue and do a good job with this fraught discussion. A good resource in how to have difficult discussions is Crucial Conversations, a book and a course one can take. I highly recommend either.

Second, the way you frame this is important. It is not you and your wife deciding. It is you and you wife trying to make a health decision for your child. So the first things you need to consider is what is the scope of your authorities. There is good consensus that parents should make health decisions for their child only when the need is great, there is no ability to wait, and the intervention is in the best interest of the child.

In the case of routine infant circumcision, it is easily argued that this is not in the best interest of the child, nor is there a need to do it now, so the best course of action is to wait and let him decide later, when he is old enough to make these decisions by himself.

Here are a few resources that you both could read/watch that may help:

Reasons to Keep Your Son Whole | Doctors Opposing Circumcision

(3) Circumcision The Whole Story - YouTube

(3) Anatomy of the Penis: Penile and Foreskin Neurology - YouTube

(3) Child Circumcision: An Elephant in the Hospital by Professor R. McAllister - YouTube

Laying It All Out There: A Mother's Circumcision Decision - The WHOLE Network: Accurate Circumcision & Foreskin Information

Your son will thank you if you keep him intact. I wish my parents had not been duped by biased medical professionals and had me circumcised.

Best wishes,

[Shaver933]

Thanks for the feedback. It's disappointing, but understandable, to hear that there's likely no way for me to independently find out the gender.

For those who asked, my reason for being anti-circumcision is that it's pretty clearly unnecessary, incredibly painful, and a violation of a child's bodily autonomy. The idea of making that decision for him just hours after he's born is sickening.

My wife's reasoning is varied, but it seems to be mostly just rationalizing her desire for it to "look the right way." She's also getting pressure from her parents, who know my stance on the issue. Other points she's brought up is "cleaning" it (we live in a wealthy suburb in IL, not the Dark Ages) and reduction of STDs and cervical cancer (she has an old relative who died of cervical cancer whose husband was uncut).

I've told her he can absolutely make the decision when he's older if he's uncomfortable with how it looks.

It's frustrating because it seems like I need to convince her, or else we are doing it. She seems unwilling to entertain the idea of deferring to me on this or compromising with something like "wait and let him decide." That's despite the fact that there are several reasons we should defer to the decision to not-circumcise if we are in disagreement:

• If in doubt, don't do a surgery
• If in doubt, don't do something irreversible
• If in doubt, defer to the guy with the machinery (abortion advocates use this argument all the time, and my wife is pro-choice)

Her reasoning for going with "her choice" if we disagree is "I built him with my body, so I ultimately make the decision" and "I'll be the one taking care of him." (She recently quit her job to be a full stay-at-home-mom, since I'm able to cover our expenses. So it's frustrating, to say the least, that this new freedom I've given her to be fully available and present for her children's childhood is now used as some sort of slight against me. Not to mention that I work from home and am incredibly involved in care of our current daughter.)

She has told me that she'll watch the documentary "American Circumcision." So maybe that will help me out.

I'm very familiar with the arguments pro- and and against. But if anyone has additional suggestions for how to have the conversation, frame the decision, or other resources, I'd appreciate them.

[admin]

To me it's very simple.

Most of the world is intact, 90% of the world's non-muslims, in fact. 95% of the world's Christians do not cut babies.

Foreskin feels really good. No medical association endorses forced genital cutting. Most of the world's medical associations roundly condemn it.

And proxy consent for any intervention is ethical IF waiting for the patient's own consent would lead to net harm, and WHEN less-destructive options have been exhausted. Forced genital cutting unhealthy male, female, or intersex children fails this common ethical test. Male infant circumcision is the only thing we let doctors do that fails. It's grandfathered in. Anybody proposing starting it today if it had never been done would be locked up.

And apart from that you will simply never ever put your name on a form that says this was okay. And you will tell anyone who asks that it is not okay with you. Her opinion is valid for her, but no more so than yours is for you, and neither is relevant to his body throughout the next century, when he will be living in society where circumcision is more and more rare.

[Shaver933]

And proxy consent for any intervention is ethical IF waiting for the patient's own consent would lead to net harm, and WHEN less-destructive options have been exhausted. Forced genital cutting unhealthy male, female, or intersex children fails this common ethical test. Male infant circumcision is the only thing we let doctors do that fails. It's grandfathered in. Anybody proposing starting it today if it had never been done would be locked up.

This is an interesting frame I haven’t explored with her, and which sidelines some arguments she’s made that I’ve struggled to deal with in real-time, even though they were obviously nonsensical.

Is this argument laid out by credentialed experts anywhere?

[Nthehood]

"her desire for it to "look the right way." " Why would being being cut look the right way since that's not the way our bodies are designed? She's also getting pressure from her parents, who know my stance on the issue. Other points she's brought up is "cleaning" it (we live in a wealthy suburb in IL, not the Dark Ages) and reduction of STDs and cervical cancer (she has an old relative who died of cervical cancer whose husband was uncut). Cleaning is obviously a matter of proper bathing like any other body part. Is there proof the death of her relative was ultimately caused by an uncircumcised man?

[greg_b]

This is an interesting frame I haven’t explored with her, and which sidelines some arguments she’s made that I’ve struggled to deal with in real-time, even though they were obviously nonsensical.

Is this argument laid out by credentialed experts anywhere?

Here are some ethical articles that may help:

Medical & Ethical Positions - Attorneys for the Rights of the Child | ARC Law

Circumcision: Your Legal Rights (arclaw.org)

The AAP report on circumcision: Bad science + bad ethics = bad medicine | Practical Ethics (ox.ac.uk)

Full article: Medically Unnecessary Genital Cutting and the Rights of the Child: Moving Toward Consensus (tandfonline.com)

The AAP report on circumcision: Bad science + bad ethics = bad medicine | Practical Ethics (ox.ac.uk)

(PDF) Female genital mutilation (FGM) and male circumcision: Should there be a separate ethical discourse? | Brian D. Earp - Academia.edu

"Is Circumcision Legal?" by Peter W, Adler (richmond.edu)

Long-term adverse outcomes from neonatal circumcision reported in a survey of 1,008 men: an overview of health and human rights implications: The International Journal of Human Rights: Vol 21, No 2 (tandfonline.com)

Evidence and Ethics on: Circumcision - Evidence Based Birth®

Fight the good fight!

[z726]

She has told me that she'll watch the documentary "American Circumcision." So maybe that will help me out.

I'm very familiar with the arguments pro- and and against. But if anyone has additional suggestions for how to have the conversation, frame the decision, or other resources, I'd appreciate them.

Showing her the documentary should help to dispel some of the medical myths surrounding circumcision. Had you already seen it yourself?

Just keep in mind that you may or may not want to avoid the bit between 1:19:15 and 1:21:35, which shows 2 minutes of a doctor performing a circumcision without adequate anesthesia (not that it ever is adequate). Although this is meant to show people how horrific the procedure really is, it's something you wouldn't want to watch on a full stomach.

[greg_b]

I just came across this, seems like a good resource as it is a succinct summary of many other writings:

'Unethical and harmful': the case against circumcising baby boys (theconversation.com)

[sementics]

if it is a girl, would she opt for the same?

[Shaver933]

"her desire for it to "look the right way." " Why would being being cut look the right way since that's not the way our bodies are designed? She's also getting pressure from her parents, who know my stance on the issue. Other points she's brought up is "cleaning" it (we live in a wealthy suburb in IL, not the Dark Ages) and reduction of STDs and cervical cancer (she has an old relative who died of cervical cancer whose husband was uncut). Cleaning is obviously a matter of proper bathing like any other body part. Is there proof the death of her relative was ultimately caused by an uncircumcised man?

No proof that I'm aware of - how could you possibly prove that? But they probably have some familial "knowledge" that "this was obviously the cause."

It's sort of a funny anecdote to make the choice because of. The only reason they talk about it at all is because it's such an oddity. It's the opposite of "data" - it's an anomaly. And that's assuming it's true to begin with!

[Shaver933]

Showing her the documentary should help to dispel some of the medical myths surrounding circumcision. Had you already seen it yourself?

Just keep in mind that you may or may not want to avoid the bit between 1:19:15 and 1:21:35, which shows 2 minutes of a doctor performing a circumcision without adequate anesthesia (not that it ever is adequate). Although this is meant to show people how horrific the procedure really is, it's something you wouldn't want to watch on a full stomach.

Yes, I've seen it.

I'm hoping that scene in particular really sticks with her. It might be one of the only persuasion avenues that I have open at this point.