Hello - question regarding circumcision

[Nthehood]

Body modification without ACTUAL medical reason is, in my opinion imoral. Modifying someones body for looks, cultural pressures or perceived hygiene on someone before they are able to speak for themselves are a some examples.

[z726]

I don’t wish to divert the subject. I’m merely saying if the one variable were changed, and women were having breast implants at birth, or just getting their ears pierced, it would be a culture war sort of topic. I’m not denying there’s other propaganda and disinformation out there. Circumcision is a money maker.

It's actually fairly common among Latin cultures to have a baby girl's ears pierced. In recent decades, it's become more popular in the US, and as you might expect, a topic of growing controversy. Just Google the phrase, "infant ear piercing". People trivialize it, and seem to easily minimize the pain it causes or the risk of infection it brings.

If you were having a girl in some other country, perhaps you'd be pressured into that

[Shaver933]

I don’t wish to divert the subject. I’m merely saying if the one variable were changed, and women were having breast implants at birth, or just getting their ears pierced, it would be a culture war sort of topic. I’m not denying there’s other propaganda and disinformation out there. Circumcision is a money maker.

[greg_b]

Obviously not, but has that ever stopped someone?

And when the obvious comparisons are made on bodily autonomy - specifically to abortion - she's on the complete other side of the issue.

The only reason circumcision isn't treated as a crime is because it's mostly being done to men. Sadly, the same as several other issues.

I think there is more to it than that it is done to men. The medical community expends great effort to push the false idea that the foreskin has no value, indeed, listening to them, it is a liability. they discount any evidence to the contrary, and take great pains to push the false idea that babies don't feel pain, are not traumatized by the pain, etc. They also push the false idea of circumcision having benefits that is clearly biased, such as protecting against UTIs, and protecting against contracting STDs if you choose to have unprotected sex. And they unprofessionally will often talk about the psychological trauma to the child if he looks different, ignoring the fact that he looks different in many other ways, non of whish apparently will traumatize him.

Just listen to the words often used: "it is just a little snip", instead of saying we are causing unbearable pain without any good way to reduce the pain.

Without all of that propaganda and fearmongering, you would be having a much easier time with this discussion. So keep that in mind, I suggest that is the big part of the problem, not that it is done to men.

[Shaver933]

if it is a girl, would she opt for the same?

Obviously not, but has that ever stopped someone?

And when the obvious comparisons are made on bodily autonomy - specifically to abortion - she's on the complete other side of the issue.

The only reason circumcision isn't treated as a crime is because it's mostly being done to men. Sadly, the same as several other issues.

[Shaver933]

Showing her the documentary should help to dispel some of the medical myths surrounding circumcision. Had you already seen it yourself?

Just keep in mind that you may or may not want to avoid the bit between 1:19:15 and 1:21:35, which shows 2 minutes of a doctor performing a circumcision without adequate anesthesia (not that it ever is adequate). Although this is meant to show people how horrific the procedure really is, it's something you wouldn't want to watch on a full stomach.

Yes, I've seen it.

I'm hoping that scene in particular really sticks with her. It might be one of the only persuasion avenues that I have open at this point.

[Shaver933]

"her desire for it to "look the right way." " Why would being being cut look the right way since that's not the way our bodies are designed? She's also getting pressure from her parents, who know my stance on the issue. Other points she's brought up is "cleaning" it (we live in a wealthy suburb in IL, not the Dark Ages) and reduction of STDs and cervical cancer (she has an old relative who died of cervical cancer whose husband was uncut). Cleaning is obviously a matter of proper bathing like any other body part. Is there proof the death of her relative was ultimately caused by an uncircumcised man?

No proof that I'm aware of - how could you possibly prove that? But they probably have some familial "knowledge" that "this was obviously the cause."

It's sort of a funny anecdote to make the choice because of. The only reason they talk about it at all is because it's such an oddity. It's the opposite of "data" - it's an anomaly. And that's assuming it's true to begin with!

[sementics]

if it is a girl, would she opt for the same?

[greg_b]

I just came across this, seems like a good resource as it is a succinct summary of many other writings:

'Unethical and harmful': the case against circumcising baby boys (theconversation.com)

[z726]

She has told me that she'll watch the documentary "American Circumcision." So maybe that will help me out.

I'm very familiar with the arguments pro- and and against. But if anyone has additional suggestions for how to have the conversation, frame the decision, or other resources, I'd appreciate them.

Showing her the documentary should help to dispel some of the medical myths surrounding circumcision. Had you already seen it yourself?

Just keep in mind that you may or may not want to avoid the bit between 1:19:15 and 1:21:35, which shows 2 minutes of a doctor performing a circumcision without adequate anesthesia (not that it ever is adequate). Although this is meant to show people how horrific the procedure really is, it's something you wouldn't want to watch on a full stomach.

[greg_b]

This is an interesting frame I haven’t explored with her, and which sidelines some arguments she’s made that I’ve struggled to deal with in real-time, even though they were obviously nonsensical.

Is this argument laid out by credentialed experts anywhere?

Here are some ethical articles that may help:

Medical & Ethical Positions - Attorneys for the Rights of the Child | ARC Law

Circumcision: Your Legal Rights (arclaw.org)

The AAP report on circumcision: Bad science + bad ethics = bad medicine | Practical Ethics (ox.ac.uk)

Full article: Medically Unnecessary Genital Cutting and the Rights of the Child: Moving Toward Consensus (tandfonline.com)

The AAP report on circumcision: Bad science + bad ethics = bad medicine | Practical Ethics (ox.ac.uk)

(PDF) Female genital mutilation (FGM) and male circumcision: Should there be a separate ethical discourse? | Brian D. Earp - Academia.edu

"Is Circumcision Legal?" by Peter W, Adler (richmond.edu)

Long-term adverse outcomes from neonatal circumcision reported in a survey of 1,008 men: an overview of health and human rights implications: The International Journal of Human Rights: Vol 21, No 2 (tandfonline.com)

Evidence and Ethics on: Circumcision - Evidence Based Birth®

Fight the good fight!

[Nthehood]

"her desire for it to "look the right way." " Why would being being cut look the right way since that's not the way our bodies are designed? She's also getting pressure from her parents, who know my stance on the issue. Other points she's brought up is "cleaning" it (we live in a wealthy suburb in IL, not the Dark Ages) and reduction of STDs and cervical cancer (she has an old relative who died of cervical cancer whose husband was uncut). Cleaning is obviously a matter of proper bathing like any other body part. Is there proof the death of her relative was ultimately caused by an uncircumcised man?

[Shaver933]

And proxy consent for any intervention is ethical IF waiting for the patient's own consent would lead to net harm, and WHEN less-destructive options have been exhausted. Forced genital cutting unhealthy male, female, or intersex children fails this common ethical test. Male infant circumcision is the only thing we let doctors do that fails. It's grandfathered in. Anybody proposing starting it today if it had never been done would be locked up.

This is an interesting frame I haven’t explored with her, and which sidelines some arguments she’s made that I’ve struggled to deal with in real-time, even though they were obviously nonsensical.

Is this argument laid out by credentialed experts anywhere?

[admin]

To me it's very simple.

Most of the world is intact, 90% of the world's non-muslims, in fact. 95% of the world's Christians do not cut babies.

Foreskin feels really good. No medical association endorses forced genital cutting. Most of the world's medical associations roundly condemn it.

And proxy consent for any intervention is ethical IF waiting for the patient's own consent would lead to net harm, and WHEN less-destructive options have been exhausted. Forced genital cutting unhealthy male, female, or intersex children fails this common ethical test. Male infant circumcision is the only thing we let doctors do that fails. It's grandfathered in. Anybody proposing starting it today if it had never been done would be locked up.

And apart from that you will simply never ever put your name on a form that says this was okay. And you will tell anyone who asks that it is not okay with you. Her opinion is valid for her, but no more so than yours is for you, and neither is relevant to his body throughout the next century, when he will be living in society where circumcision is more and more rare.

[Shaver933]

Thanks for the feedback. It's disappointing, but understandable, to hear that there's likely no way for me to independently find out the gender.

For those who asked, my reason for being anti-circumcision is that it's pretty clearly unnecessary, incredibly painful, and a violation of a child's bodily autonomy. The idea of making that decision for him just hours after he's born is sickening.

My wife's reasoning is varied, but it seems to be mostly just rationalizing her desire for it to "look the right way." She's also getting pressure from her parents, who know my stance on the issue. Other points she's brought up is "cleaning" it (we live in a wealthy suburb in IL, not the Dark Ages) and reduction of STDs and cervical cancer (she has an old relative who died of cervical cancer whose husband was uncut).

I've told her he can absolutely make the decision when he's older if he's uncomfortable with how it looks.

It's frustrating because it seems like I need to convince her, or else we are doing it. She seems unwilling to entertain the idea of deferring to me on this or compromising with something like "wait and let him decide." That's despite the fact that there are several reasons we should defer to the decision to not-circumcise if we are in disagreement:

• If in doubt, don't do a surgery
• If in doubt, don't do something irreversible
• If in doubt, defer to the guy with the machinery (abortion advocates use this argument all the time, and my wife is pro-choice)

Her reasoning for going with "her choice" if we disagree is "I built him with my body, so I ultimately make the decision" and "I'll be the one taking care of him." (She recently quit her job to be a full stay-at-home-mom, since I'm able to cover our expenses. So it's frustrating, to say the least, that this new freedom I've given her to be fully available and present for her children's childhood is now used as some sort of slight against me. Not to mention that I work from home and am incredibly involved in care of our current daughter.)

She has told me that she'll watch the documentary "American Circumcision." So maybe that will help me out.

I'm very familiar with the arguments pro- and and against. But if anyone has additional suggestions for how to have the conversation, frame the decision, or other resources, I'd appreciate them.